No subject
Fri Jun 19 15:25:57 CEST 2009
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-----Original Message-----
From: legal-bounces at lists.gpl-violations.org
[mailto:legal-bounces at lists.gpl-violations.org] On Behalf Of Akiba
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 2:02 PM
To: legal at lists.gpl-violations.org
Subject: RE: Question regarding GPL and membership requirements for a
standards body
Hi Klaas.
I think one issue is that the USB-IF doesn't limit its use of the spec to
members. Anyone is able to use it. Only the use of the USB logo, trademarks,
and certification are for members. This is the major difference between
Zigbee. The similar situation exists between Bluetooth where the spec can
only be used by members, but the lowest tier of membership is free. I
believe that's why Bluetooth was allowed in the Linux kernel.
I've been mulling over this issue a lot, and have discussed it with people
on my blog. Unfortunately, I still haven't found a compelling argument that
the GPL can still be used. I appreciate the input though.
Akiba
FreakLabs Open Source Zigbee Project
http://www.freaklabs.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Klaas van Gend [mailto:klaas.van.gend at mvista.com]
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 2:36 AM
To: Akiba
Cc: legal at lists.gpl-violations.org
Subject: Re: Question regarding GPL and membership requirements for a
standards body
Hi Akiba,
To me, this case appears to have similarities to the USB gadget (device)
case and the (old) SD case - and the results are quite different.
You're not supposed to create/ship USB devices without a USB forum
membership (and registering official IDs), but that does not affect the
Linux drivers - they're GPL. The same is true for PCI by the way.
The membership is required to keep the standardization effort afloat and
pay for the organization - not to keep things secret.
The opposite example is the SD card forum.
My company (MontaVista) wrote a GPL software stack for SD back in 2004
and immediately got a cease-and-desist letter from the SD forum (and we
were a member of the forum!) because they did not allow a GPL version of
the code. Fortunately, that requirement has been lessened about two
years ago - and lately everybody happily ships Linux devices with real
SD support - not just MMC support.
Klaas
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi Allan. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>According to =
your
argument, then Bluetooth would also be incompatible since it requires =
that any
users of the Bluetooth spec become members of the Bluetooth SIG. The =
membership
is free at the lowest tier. However there is a Bluetooth Linux project =
and it
looks like it has been deemed compatible with the GPL. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p>=
</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DCalibri><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Akiba</span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DCalibri><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>FreakLabs Open Source Zigbee =
Project</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DCalibri><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>http://www.freaklabs.org</span></fo=
nt><span
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Times New Roman"'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Hardy, Allan [mailto:allan.hardy at lmco.com] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, June 23, =
2009 10:53
AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Akiba; =
<st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">legal at lists.gpl-violations.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: Question =
regarding
GPL and membership requirements for a standards body</span></font><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>>></span></font><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> The issue is that the GPL requires that software must =
be
provided free of licensing fees as mentioned in clause 2-c of the GPL =
v2:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font><=
/p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Zigbee terms are not GPL =
compliant we
agree on that.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I respectfully disagree that it =
is
because of a membership fee. Requiring membership at all is enough =
to be
in conflict with GPL.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font><=
/p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Assume Zigbee membership is =
free:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font><=
/p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>If I took a standard GPL =
product and
embedded it in my hardware Device what are my GPL requirements? =
–
Primarily to provide source code for the GPL =
components.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font><=
/p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>If I take a Zigbee embedded in =
a linux
distro, then put in my device what are my requirements? - To =
become a
member of Zigbee alliance, to follow what ever additional requirements =
are put
on members, and to provide source code for GPL =
components.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font><=
/p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>The Zigbee terms are not GPL =
compatible
because it discriminates against a class of users, as example commercial
hardware vendors, it puts additional restrictions on my ability to use =
the GPL
product, takes away freedoms of use I had, =
etc.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font><=
/p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>The fact that it also involves =
$ is a
secondary issue, imho, not the main issue. Zigbee =
could drop
their fee to $1 or $0 and it still would be GPL =
incompatible.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font><=
/p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>>></span></font><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> This was the central point in the issue that was =
discussed
regarding the spec’s compatibility with GPL’d software. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font><=
/p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Discussed where? Even if =
it was
the central point of the discussion, it is not the central point of GPL
incompatibility.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>At least that’s my =
central
point. : )<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font><=
/p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Allan<o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font><=
/p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0mm 0mm 0mm'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
legal-bounces at lists.gpl-violations.org
[mailto:legal-bounces at lists.gpl-violations.org] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Akiba<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, June 22, =
2009 9:03
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">legal at lists.gpl-violations.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: Question =
regarding
GPL and membership requirements for a standards =
body<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The issue is =
that the GPL
requires that software must be provided free of licensing fees as =
mentioned in
clause 2-c of the GPL v2:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p>=
</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt'>2. You may modify your copy or copies of the Library or any =
portion of
it, thus forming a work based on the Library, and copy and distribute =
such
modifications or work under the terms of Section 1 above, provided that =
you
also meet all of these conditions:<br>
<br>
* a) The modified work must itself be a software =
library.<br>
* b) You must cause the files modified to carry =
prominent
notices stating that you changed the files and the date of any =
change.<br>
* c) You must cause the whole of the work to be =
licensed at
no charge to all third parties under the terms of this =
License.</span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p>=
</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The Zigbee =
membership
requirement for commercial projects becomes an implied licensing fee =
because
what you’re doing is paying the membership fee in order to gain
permission to use their IP. If the lowest tier of membership had no =
charges
attached to it, even if other tiers did, then people who wanted to make =
a
commercial product based on GPL’d software would not need to pay =
the
Zigbee Alliance to license their IP. Hence clause 2-c is satisfied. This =
was
the central point in the issue that was discussed regarding the =
spec’s
compatibility with GPL’d software. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p>=
</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I’m a =
member of the
Zigbee Alliance, but I can’t expect my users to be. So the =
membership
requirement would constitute a restriction placed on the software, since =
it
uses Zigbee’s IP. As far as we can see, this is a violation of (at =
least)
the spirit of the GPL. Regarding software using the Zigbee protocol to =
be
allowed to use the GPL, we’re still trying to get a definite =
answer on
this. However, at best, it looks like it’s =
ambiguous.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p>=
</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DCalibri><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Akiba</span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DCalibri><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>FreakLabs Open Source Zigbee =
Project</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DCalibri><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>http://www.freaklabs.org</span></fo=
nt><span
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Times New Roman"'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Hardy, Allan [mailto:allan.hardy at lmco.com] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, June 23, =
2009 5:24
AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Akiba; =
<st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">legal at lists.gpl-violations.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: Question =
regarding
GPL and membership requirements for a standards body</span></font><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>I just wanted to make a comment on a point =
made in the
blog. I am a bit of a sick guiy in that I like discussing this =
legal
stuff :) just for fun.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Where you said:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>"However after a bit more investigation, =
it
turned out that the Bluetooth Adopter membership was free which would =
remove
the GPL violation."<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Why is payment or $ the basis of your =
analysis?
The GPL doesn’t stop anyone from charging $ for using a GPL
product. It may not be a smart marketing move to charge for =
something that
your customers can turnaround and offer for free, but the GPL =
doesn’t
prevent that. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>I would have thought the right conclusion =
would have
been along the lines of 'freedoms' not free costs. Is there =
anything
about the act of registering that restricts my freedoms under the GPL, =
meaning
it deny's me rights or makes me surrender =
rights.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Paragraphs 4 and 6 of the GPL seem the most =
applicable
here. I copied them below just for =
reference.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>As I understand the GPL I can charge you say =
$1000 to
acquire my GPL based software. If you choose to pay you can then =
use the
software under the GPL. Meaning you can give it away for =
free.
(which makes me changing upfront sorta dumb business practice). =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>What I can't do is charge you $1000 and then =
tell you
that you must also charge. I cant override/change the rights the =
GPL
affords you.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Same goes with registration. I can =
offer you my
GPL products and require you to register, for free or not, in order to =
get the
download. You can then offer the product to others under the =
GPL. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>What I cant do is tell you that if you offer =
the
product to anyone else, you must have then register at my site or even =
at some
other site, even if its free registration. That would be me adding =
a
superset of requirements around the GPL, which the GPL tries hard to not =
allow.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>So back to Zigby<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>You release a linux implementation of the =
Zigby
specification. What Zigby doesn’t want is a hardware guy =
embedding
that linux/zigby stack and charging for the hardware product, without =
them
being a member of the zigby alliance (again free or pay doesn’t =
matter)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>What license can you release your ziby/kinux =
stack
under? BSD, GPL, ? Doesn’t matter, what ever it is it =
must
carry the caveat that if you use zigby/linux in a product (software or
hardware) you sell you have to sign up. Basically you must put the
zigby/linux product pretty much under the same terms as Zigby has =
spelled them
out with the restrictions on commercial =
use.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>So, the way I am looking =
at it -
Zigby is an issue not because there is $ involved, but because it adds
restrictions/requirements on top of GPL for any downstream users - which =
GPL
doesn’t allow or support. That restriction could be a free
registration or a paid one, doesn’t matter, it’s a
restriction/additional requirement on use of GPL =
product.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>I think whomever put up =
the issue
a the linux kernel discussion got it confused in the areas of commercial =
or
not.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>As to why Bluetooth doesn’t have the =
same issue,
I'd have to see the Bluetooth license/terms to be sure, but if it is for
trademark use and not software use, then it would be in a whole =
different
ballpark.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Allan<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>From GPL V2<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>4. You may not copy, modify, sublicense, or =
distribute
the Program except as expressly provided under this License. Any attempt
otherwise to copy, modify, sublicense or distribute the Program is void, =
and
will automatically terminate your rights under this License. However, =
parties
who have received copies, or rights, from you under this License will =
not have
their licenses terminated so long as such parties remain in full =
compliance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>6. Each time you redistribute the Program (or =
any work
based on the Program), the recipient automatically receives a license =
from the
original licensor to copy, distribute or modify the Program subject to =
these
terms and conditions. You may not impose any further restrictions on the
recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein. You are not =
responsible for
enforcing compliance by third parties to this =
License.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: legal-bounces at lists.gpl-violations.org
[mailto:legal-bounces at lists.gpl-violations.org] On Behalf Of Akiba<br>
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 2:02 PM<br>
To: <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">legal at lists.gpl-violations.org</st1:PersonName><br>
Subject: RE: Question regarding GPL and membership requirements for a =
standards
body<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Hi Klaas.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>I think one issue is that the USB-IF doesn't =
limit its
use of the spec to<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>members. Anyone is able to use it. Only the =
use of the
USB logo, trademarks,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>and certification are for members. This is =
the major
difference between<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Zigbee. The similar situation exists between =
Bluetooth
where the spec can<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>only be used by members, but the lowest tier =
of
membership is free. I<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>believe that's why Bluetooth was allowed in =
the Linux
kernel. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>I've been mulling over this issue a lot, and =
have
discussed it with people<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>on my blog. Unfortunately, I still haven't =
found a
compelling argument that<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>the GPL can still be used. I appreciate the =
input
though. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Akiba<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>FreakLabs Open Source Zigbee =
Project<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>http://www.freaklabs.org<o:p></o:p></span></fo=
nt></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>-----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>From: Klaas van Gend
[mailto:klaas.van.gend at mvista.com] <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 2:36 =
AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>To: Akiba<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Cc: <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">legal at lists.gpl-violations.org</st1:PersonName><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Subject: Re: Question regarding GPL and =
membership
requirements for a<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>standards body<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Hi Akiba,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>To me, this case appears to have similarities =
to the
USB gadget (device)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>case and the (old) SD case - and the results =
are quite
different.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>You're not supposed to create/ship USB =
devices without
a USB forum<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>membership (and registering official IDs), =
but that
does not affect the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Linux drivers - they're GPL. The same is true =
for PCI
by the way.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>The membership is required to keep the =
standardization
effort afloat and<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>pay for the organization - not to keep things =
secret.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>The opposite example is the SD card =
forum.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>My company (MontaVista) wrote a GPL software =
stack for
SD back in 2004<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>and immediately got a cease-and-desist letter =
from the
SD forum (and we<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>were a member of the forum!) because they did =
not
allow a GPL version of<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>the code. Fortunately, that requirement has =
been
lessened about two<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>years ago - and lately everybody happily =
ships Linux
devices with real<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>SD support - not just MMC =
support.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Klaas<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DConsolas><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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