[Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 02:25:22 -0500, Matthew wrote in message 
<f28b49ce0811202325q190e8ffdma3c8f8123ddaece6 at mail.gmail.com>:

> Comments within.  (I am personally uncomfortable including the GPL
> violations people until we have a clear direction from the leadership
> of the flightgear project as to the direction the project would like
> to go).

..ok, this far I have found a fake physical address, suggesting my
suspicion is confirmable.  So I cc.

..unless New Zealand allow a fake address, a fake company, a fake
name etc, these are illegally registred web sites. 


> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 1:49 AM, Arnt Karlsen <arnt at c2i.net> wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> > ...
> >
> > > Still, the question is if this company is violating the GPL.  We
> > > have no proof of that.
> >
> > ..I'm checking my wee mirrors to find out.  ;o)
> 
> 
> The GPL can only be violated when they distribute the software.  Their
> website doesn't entail them distributing.  Action can only be taken
> if there is a clear  violation (ie: they distribute a flightgear
> derived product without an offer of distributing source.  Who knows,
> they may include the source in the DVD or CD that they ship.
> 
> I personally don't want to charge forward and claim a violation when
> nothing has been distributed.

..well maybe you don't have to ;o), there's 7Zip, Wesnoth etc at
http://www.idbproductions.com/Products/ all rather strongly suggesting 
at least a conspiracy to commit software piracy, rather than lawful
distribution under the GPL.  So, I am not worried about defending my
suspicions in courts. ;o)


> > (The gpl-violations.org guys go after people who
> > are not honoring the release of source for both distributed and
> > derived works - typically in embedded systems.  Usually they settle
> > when the company honors the GPL and provides source or stops
> > distributing the offending product.)
> 
> ..aye, this means they have valuable experience
> > and can guide us. ;o)
> >
> > > At this stage it appears that they are simply selling a binary
> > > distribution of a set of OSS applications.
> >
> > ..then, in good faith, they shouldn't mind saying so.
> > My opinion now is, these people are common criminals,
> > or a tSCOG-style Microsoft proxy team.
> > http://gpl-violations.org/faq/violation-faq.html
> > http://gpl-violations.org/faq/legal-faq.html
> > http://gpl-violations.org/faq/sourcecode-faq.html
> > http://gpl-violations.org/faq/vendor-faq.html
> 
> 
> 
> But they do say that - http://flight-aviator.com/
> 
> ===
> [image: flight]Based on the award winning Flight Gear project
> 
> [image: flight]All from the thriving Open Source Community, this sim
> is forever changing
> 
> ===

..but _no_ mention of _which_ license.
 
> > > As mentioned before, ethics or questionable business practices
> > > aside, we need to focus on what they are actually violating.
> > > Even the wikipedia screen shots are licensed under the GPL can be
> > > re-used freely.
> >
> > ..aye.  Removals of "FlightGear.org" and "GPL" etc around
> > these screen shots, would prove a few things though. ;o)
> 
> 
> I don't see what you are saying.  The screenshots don't seem to be
> trimmed - beyond a possible crop here or there.

..we shall see.  ;o)

> http://www.flight-aviator.com/images/fps/multiplayer-map.jpg as well
> as http://www.flight-aviator.com/images/getstart11x.jpg don't seem to
> be hiding it from being (or being derived from flightgear).  The lack
> of attribution is not quite nice, but is a common mistake.

.._active_ removal takes it that one step further. ;o)

> Again, if the flightgear leadership, or the creators (and hence
> copyright owners) of the images have particular concern then that can
> put forward when a direction is chosen.

..this is not just us (FG).
 
> > ..and keep in mind, top posting is not quite comme-il-feaut
> > at legal at lists.gpl-violations.org. ;o)
> 
> 
> I understand, but the google mobile client provides no options to
> inline quote or bottom quote.   (I would actually expect that from a
> legal perspective a top-posted email thread is far more valuable than
> a inline posted... But that is a different discussion.  :)
 
..in those cases we have real mail clients that can handle mail list
threads in a manner convenient for litigation discovery. ;o)
 
> Please note that I am not saying take no action, I am just saying
> take a few days to gather what each copyright owner who is impacted
> wants and ensure a plan is prepared before taking action.
> 
> Remember, the emotive aspect - although it is real and affects people
> personally - should not be the prime driver for individuals.  The
> legal framework that each person has implicitly or explicitly has
> agreed to is what should be driven.   (I had a long discussion with
> some people from Creative Commons that people should also be made
> aware of what they are giving up.  If you CC-Share Alike an image,
> and then see that image being used to promote something you
> personally find distasteful - have given up your right to control
> what the downstream person does with the image.  You have no
> fundamental recourse unless the downstream restricts other people
> from the Share Alike rights within the license.  You may not like it,
> but you gave up your right to control that when you licensed it.  The
> same goes with the GPL.

..er, not quite, especially not under GPLv2, but let's 
concentrate on _fact_ discovery for now, eh? ;o)

> As mentioned before, I see the baseline direction should be at least
> the following.
> 
>   1) Respect copyright - The images and and so on should attributed
> fully 2) Respect the GPL - If the flightgear derived binaries that are
> distributed are not accompanied by source or an offer to provide the
> source that created the binary, then actions should be taken to
> ensure that it is available.
> 
> 1) is fairly obvious, but 2) will need someone to buy the CD before
> taking further actions.

..or _otherwise_ find evidence of copyright violations. ;o)

> Regards,
> 
> Matthew


-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.