From henrik at henriknordstrom.net Mon Nov 3 13:52:43 2008 From: henrik at henriknordstrom.net (Henrik Nordstrom) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 13:52:43 +0100 Subject: Netgear delaying updated ReadyNAS GPL sources In-Reply-To: <1225234806.15622.83.camel@henriknordstrom.net> References: <1224968303.3231.249.camel@henriknordstrom.net> <1224968770.2992.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225234806.15622.83.camel@henriknordstrom.net> Message-ID: <1225716763.14594.24.camel@henriknordstrom.net> On ons, 2008-10-29 at 00:00 +0100, Henrik Nordstrom wrote: > Turns out they actually had prepared the GPL source archive at the time > of firmware release (actually some days before based on the file > timstamps), but for some reason it's not yet published by Netgear. And looking today I find the ReadyNAS 4.1.4 GPL sources published at the normal Netgear open source location. > http://kbserver.netgear.com/kb_web_files/open_src.asp Regards Henrik -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://lists.gpl-violations.org/pipermail/legal/attachments/20081103/8f09fd73/attachment.pgp From thomas at jpberlin.de Tue Nov 4 13:02:10 2008 From: thomas at jpberlin.de (thomas) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:02:10 +0100 Subject: A Program use xfoil (GPL) but is not GPL. Is this possible? Message-ID: <1225800130.7238.1.camel@pina> Hi, I found the Program Profili2 (don't know the license, but not GPL compatible). This program uses XFoil (GPL, see http://web.mit.edu/drela/Public/web/xfoil/ ). Must Profili use GPL, too? There is no sourcecode for Profili available. I wrote a E-Mail to the Author of Profili: ------------- i saw that profili2 use XFoil for calculations. XFoil use the GPL as license. My question is, where can i download the sourcecode from Profili? I think Profili should use also the GPL because you use XFoil. Is that right or not? ------------- The Answer was: ------------- No, Profili is not a GPL application, as it uses XFoil executable and not XFoil source code. ------------- Best regards, Tom From mathfox at xs4all.nl Tue Nov 4 13:40:46 2008 From: mathfox at xs4all.nl (Peter Roozemaal) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:40:46 +0100 Subject: A Program use xfoil (GPL) but is not GPL. Is this possible? In-Reply-To: <1225800130.7238.1.camel@pina> References: <1225800130.7238.1.camel@pina> Message-ID: <491042CE.1040604@xs4all.nl> thomas wrote: > I found the Program Profili2 (don't know the license, but not GPL > compatible). This program uses XFoil (GPL, see > http://web.mit.edu/drela/Public/web/xfoil/ ). Must Profili use GPL, too? > There is no sourcecode for Profili available. > > I wrote a E-Mail to the Author of Profili: > ------------- > i saw that profili2 use XFoil for calculations. XFoil use the GPL as > license. My question is, where can i download the sourcecode from > Profili? I think Profili should use also the GPL because you use XFoil. > Is that right or not? > ------------- > > The Answer was: > > ------------- > No, Profili is not a GPL application, as it uses XFoil executable and > not XFoil source code. > ------------- The Profili2 author might be right about that. Check the GPL FAQ http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.html#GPLAndPlugins and following items for an explanation of the position of the FSF. (Of course he has to distribute source for the Xfoil program if he distributes binaries for that.) Peter. From hub at figuiere.net Tue Nov 4 15:01:25 2008 From: hub at figuiere.net (Hubert Figuiere) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 09:01:25 -0500 Subject: A Program use xfoil (GPL) but is not GPL. Is this possible? In-Reply-To: <1225800130.7238.1.camel@pina> References: <1225800130.7238.1.camel@pina> Message-ID: <1225807285.14567.340.camel@quagmire> On Tue, 2008-11-04 at 13:02 +0100, thomas wrote: > Hi, > > I found the Program Profili2 (don't know the license, but not GPL > compatible). This program uses XFoil (GPL, see > http://web.mit.edu/drela/Public/web/xfoil/ ). Must Profili use GPL, too? > There is no sourcecode for Profili available. > > I wrote a E-Mail to the Author of Profili: > ------------- > i saw that profili2 use XFoil for calculations. XFoil use the GPL as > license. My question is, where can i download the sourcecode from > Profili? I think Profili should use also the GPL because you use XFoil. > Is that right or not? > ------------- > > The Answer was: > > ------------- > No, Profili is not a GPL application, as it uses XFoil executable and > not XFoil source code. > ------------- The question is how does this program use xfoil? By calling the executable or by linking the xfoil code into it? If it just call the executable it is fine. If it links the xfoil code, either statically or dynamically, then it is a derivative of xfoil, and therefor subject to the GPL licensing terms. Hub From twaffle at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 15:34:37 2008 From: twaffle at gmail.com (Thomas Charron) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 09:34:37 -0500 Subject: A Program use xfoil (GPL) but is not GPL. Is this possible? In-Reply-To: <1225800130.7238.1.camel@pina> References: <1225800130.7238.1.camel@pina> Message-ID: <30dfe2a80811040634x4f26ea73xc4a6c7b3a8e06b07@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 7:02 AM, thomas wrote: > Hi, > I found the Program Profili2 (don't know the license, but not GPL > compatible). This program uses XFoil (GPL, see > http://web.mit.edu/drela/Public/web/xfoil/ ). Must Profili use GPL, too? > There is no sourcecode for Profili available. > The Answer was: > No, Profili is not a GPL application, as it uses XFoil executable and > not XFoil source code. That is correct. I downloaded and double checked to make sure. He is using XFoil by executing it. Additionally, he has a page in the help file describing xfoil, and mentioning the GPL. A don't see a copy of the GPL itself, however, anywhere in the help files, etc.. I suspect a poor understanding of the GPL, but given the text in the help file, he encourages people to muck with it if they wish to. -- -- Thomas From pascal at bongosoft.de Mon Nov 10 23:09:04 2008 From: pascal at bongosoft.de (Pascal) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 23:09:04 +0100 Subject: GPL violation on BongoSurfer Message-ID: <4918B100.4090707@bongosoft.de> Hello list, I would like to report a licensing issue and request for help on how to proceed. I am the administrator of a project called "bongosurfer" released under the GPL. It is a program which holds a database of ISPs for Germany, and allows to establish a modem - or ISDN connection using a chosen ISP (usually the cheapest). The concept of call-by-call (which means you can use a different ISP everytime you connect to internet) is a German peculiarity, therefore our program is used only in Germany. Our homepage is in German, the sourceforge page is English but not very up-to-date: http://www.bongosoft.de http://sourceforge.net/projects/bongosurfer/ Recently, we noticed a project called "ColorSurfer" (http://www.color-surfer.de) from a company called "First Internet Invest LTD". Colorsurfer is a fork of an earlier version of our program, with some modifications on the source code. Colorsurfer can be downloaded for free, but the source codes are not available. First Internet Invest LTD also sells personalized versions of the program to ISPs who want to provide a dialer program for their own tariffs. Some ISPs already made use of this offering and provide downloads for their own version of Colorsurfer, also without sources. We found this two ISPs, who link to following downloads on their pages (Linux and Windows versions): flat2surf.de: http://www.flat2surf.de/seiten/downloads/colorSurfer-flat2surf.tar.gz http://www.flat2surf.de/seiten/downloads/ColorSurfer-flat2surf-1-install.exe 1Xnet.de: http://www.1xnet.de/downloads/colorSurfer-1Xnet.tar.gz http://www.1xnet.de/downloads/ColorSurfer-1Xnet-1-install.exe The programs are not really functional, because they obviously did bad things like sed 's/bongosurfer/colorsurfer/g' on the sources, but that's another story ;) We asked for the source codes several times. First time, they sent us diffs of the sources, but not specifying to which versions of our sources they apply. The diffs were also very uncomplete. Next times, they sent us true sources, but they were not complete, not compilable and obviously not fitting to the released binaries. All the sources were only for the major release of colorsurfer. Despite our requests, we didn't receive any sources for the derived versions sold to the ISPs mentioned above. How long should we wait to get the complete sources of ColorSurfer and all it's derivatives? What would be the next step to take if our requests fail? thanks in advance for any help offered! Best regards, Pascal Pollet From clemens at ladisch.de Tue Nov 11 08:57:39 2008 From: clemens at ladisch.de (Clemens Ladisch) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 08:57:39 +0100 Subject: GPL violation on BongoSurfer In-Reply-To: <4918B100.4090707@bongosoft.de> References: <4918B100.4090707@bongosoft.de> Message-ID: <49193AF3.1020404@ladisch.de> Pascal wrote: > The programs are not really functional, because they obviously did bad > things like sed 's/bongosurfer/colorsurfer/g' on the sources, but that's > another story ;) Did they only change the program name (perfectly legal), or did they remove information about the original author(s) (_very_ illegal)? > All the sources were only for the major release of colorsurfer. > Despite our requests, we didn't receive any sources for the derived > versions sold to the ISPs mentioned above. The ISP versions are distributed by the ISPs, so it's they who are responsible for distributing/offering the source code. > How long should we wait to get the complete sources of ColorSurfer and > all it's derivatives? Whatever is appropriate for this task. ;-) > What would be the next step to take if our requests fail? Talk to a lawyer and sue them. It's possible that "First Internet Invest Ltd" does not have enough assets to pay your expenses and damages, but it might be possible to make the CEO personally liable (since it looks as if he did the violation). Try asking in a newsgroup like de.soc.recht.misc. HTH Clemens From pascal at bongosoft.de Tue Nov 11 18:14:55 2008 From: pascal at bongosoft.de (Pascal) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:14:55 +0100 Subject: [rt.gpl-violations.org #2406] GPL violation on BongoSurfer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4919BD8F.5090304@bongosoft.de> Hello, thank you for your answer Clemens :) > Did they only change the program name (perfectly legal), or did they > remove information about the original author(s) (_very_ illegal)? > they did not remove information about us, but our names are now written in a context were they should not be (for example below passages of the documentation we didn't write). Another example is this page: http://colorsurfer.software.informer.com I'm not a developer of ColorSurfer! > The ISP versions are distributed by the ISPs, so it's they who are > responsible for distributing/offering the source code. thank you, good to know. I'm not sure the ISPs even know that the prog is GPL. > It's possible that "First Internet Invest Ltd" does not have enough > assets to pay your expenses and damages, but it might be possible to > make the CEO personally liable (since it looks as if he did the > violation). > does somebody know about previous legal actions against GPL violations in germany? I must admit that we don't have a clue about legal matter, we're just hobby programmers. But we think that the GPL should be protected, we put much effort in this piece of free software, and what we want is that the software remains free. The question is how far we are willing to go in proceedings, because we are not aware of the (financial) risks we would take. I would be satisfied if we could exert enough pressure on the company to force them to release the sources or to abandon their program. > Try asking in a newsgroup like de.soc.recht.misc. I'll remember, thanks. best regards, Pascal > > Pascal wrote: > >> The programs are not really functional, because they obviously did bad >> things like sed 's/bongosurfer/colorsurfer/g' on the sources, but that's >> another story ;) >> > > Did they only change the program name (perfectly legal), or did they > remove information about the original author(s) (_very_ illegal)? > > >> All the sources were only for the major release of colorsurfer. >> Despite our requests, we didn't receive any sources for the derived >> versions sold to the ISPs mentioned above. >> > > The ISP versions are distributed by the ISPs, so it's they who are > responsible for distributing/offering the source code. > > >> How long should we wait to get the complete sources of ColorSurfer and >> all it's derivatives? >> > > Whatever is appropriate for this task. ;-) > > >> What would be the next step to take if our requests fail? >> > > Talk to a lawyer and sue them. > > It's possible that "First Internet Invest Ltd" does not have enough > assets to pay your expenses and damages, but it might be possible to > make the CEO personally liable (since it looks as if he did the > violation). Try asking in a newsgroup like de.soc.recht.misc. > > > HTH > Clemens > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > legal mailing list > legal at lists.gpl-violations.org > https://lists.gpl-violations.org/mailman/listinfo/legal > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gpl-violations.org/pipermail/legal/attachments/20081111/4dc4b72a/attachment.htm From mathfox at xs4all.nl Tue Nov 11 19:48:15 2008 From: mathfox at xs4all.nl (Peter Roozemaal) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:48:15 +0100 Subject: [rt.gpl-violations.org #2406] GPL violation on BongoSurfer In-Reply-To: <4919BD8F.5090304@bongosoft.de> References: <4919BD8F.5090304@bongosoft.de> Message-ID: <4919D36F.5010804@xs4all.nl> Hello Pascal, As far as I know Harald Welte has been pretty successful in Germany. If you go to the gpl-violations.org website you see some reports of the successes he scored. However, most are unreported because the distributor made a promise to the authors to change its life. Your position is pretty strong and I think it is unlikely that you will have to go to court to get justice. However it is good to get some help from an attorney if you are not familiar with writing a formal letter. Peter. Pascal wrote: > Hello, > > thank you for your answer Clemens :) > >> Did they only change the program name (perfectly legal), or did they >> remove information about the original author(s) (_very_ illegal)? >> > they did not remove information about us, but our names are now written > in a context were they should not be (for example below passages of the > documentation we didn't write). Another example is this page: > http://colorsurfer.software.informer.com > I'm not a developer of ColorSurfer! > >> The ISP versions are distributed by the ISPs, so it's they who are >> responsible for distributing/offering the source code. > thank you, good to know. I'm not sure the ISPs even know that the prog > is GPL. > >> It's possible that "First Internet Invest Ltd" does not have enough >> assets to pay your expenses and damages, but it might be possible to >> make the CEO personally liable (since it looks as if he did the >> violation). >> > does somebody know about previous legal actions against GPL violations > in germany? > I must admit that we don't have a clue about legal matter, we're just > hobby programmers. But we think that the GPL should be protected, we put > much effort in this piece of free software, and what we want is that the > software remains free. The question is how far we are willing to go in > proceedings, because we are not aware of the (financial) risks we would > take. > I would be satisfied if we could exert enough pressure on the company to > force them to release the sources or to abandon their program. > >> Try asking in a newsgroup like de.soc.recht.misc. > I'll remember, thanks. > > > best regards, > Pascal > > > > >> Pascal wrote: >> >>> The programs are not really functional, because they obviously did bad >>> things like sed 's/bongosurfer/colorsurfer/g' on the sources, but that's >>> another story ;) >>> >> Did they only change the program name (perfectly legal), or did they >> remove information about the original author(s) (_very_ illegal)? >> >> >>> All the sources were only for the major release of colorsurfer. >>> Despite our requests, we didn't receive any sources for the derived >>> versions sold to the ISPs mentioned above. >>> >> The ISP versions are distributed by the ISPs, so it's they who are >> responsible for distributing/offering the source code. >> >> >>> How long should we wait to get the complete sources of ColorSurfer and >>> all it's derivatives? >>> >> Whatever is appropriate for this task. ;-) >> >> >>> What would be the next step to take if our requests fail? >>> >> Talk to a lawyer and sue them. >> >> It's possible that "First Internet Invest Ltd" does not have enough >> assets to pay your expenses and damages, but it might be possible to >> make the CEO personally liable (since it looks as if he did the >> violation). Try asking in a newsgroup like de.soc.recht.misc. >> >> >> HTH >> Clemens >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> legal mailing list >> legal at lists.gpl-violations.org >> https://lists.gpl-violations.org/mailman/listinfo/legal >> > From codewarrior at cuseeme.de Thu Nov 20 07:43:50 2008 From: codewarrior at cuseeme.de (cuseeme) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:43:50 +0100 Subject: Logitech acquired SightSpeed - possible GPL violation ? In-Reply-To: <30dfe2a80810310855r5c02b962x5e03c67570008b3c@mail.gmail.com> References: <30dfe2a80810300456i62d576bfjc1985ec0eddaf882@mail.gmail.com> <30dfe2a80810310855r5c02b962x5e03c67570008b3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Am 31.10.2008 um 16:55 schrieb Thomas Charron: > > Probrably not. Huffman encoding is a generally available algorithm, > so I'm assuming sections of that are not implemented using GPL code. > However, it may be exposing configurations which are used by > libffmpeg. thanks thomas have a last look over here , check the " licensing " and tell me what went wrong here , http://web.archive.org/web/20010413165340/http://sourceforge.net/projects/cu30/ can?t get "qvix-1.0.1.tar.gz" out of any cache. regards http://twitter.com/macbroadcast -- "Imagination is more important than Knowledge". web : http://dev.let.de/ PGP/GnuPG: 0x1ac02f3296b12b4d jabber :marc at kgraff.net From henrik at henriknordstrom.net Thu Nov 20 11:22:26 2008 From: henrik at henriknordstrom.net (Henrik Nordstrom) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:22:26 +0100 Subject: Logitech acquired SightSpeed - possible GPL violation ? In-Reply-To: References: <30dfe2a80810300456i62d576bfjc1985ec0eddaf882@mail.gmail.com> <30dfe2a80810310855r5c02b962x5e03c67570008b3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1227176546.20064.43.camel@henriknordstrom.net> On tor, 2008-11-20 at 07:43 +0100, cuseeme wrote: > have a last look over here , check the " licensing " and tell me what > went wrong here , > > > http://web.archive.org/web/20010413165340/http://sourceforge.net/projects/cu30/ What's the problem? Are you the author of this "qvix" application and suspect it's being used inappropriately? The fact that something has been relased under GPL in the past or current does not exclude that the same work is made available by the authors under other forms of licenses. Regards Henrik -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://lists.gpl-violations.org/pipermail/legal/attachments/20081120/dc04195f/attachment.pgp From codewarrior at cuseeme.de Thu Nov 20 11:42:20 2008 From: codewarrior at cuseeme.de (cuseeme) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:42:20 +0100 Subject: Logitech acquired SightSpeed - possible GPL violation ? In-Reply-To: <1227176546.20064.43.camel@henriknordstrom.net> References: <30dfe2a80810300456i62d576bfjc1985ec0eddaf882@mail.gmail.com> <30dfe2a80810310855r5c02b962x5e03c67570008b3c@mail.gmail.com> <1227176546.20064.43.camel@henriknordstrom.net> Message-ID: <364C0C0C-7206-49D5-83EB-C24A1E983E99@cuseeme.de> Am 20.11.2008 um 11:22 schrieb Henrik Nordstrom: > On tor, 2008-11-20 at 07:43 +0100, cuseeme wrote: > >> have a last look over here , check the " licensing " and tell me what >> went wrong here , >> >> >> http://web.archive.org/web/20010413165340/http://sourceforge.net/projects/cu30/ [........] > The fact that something has been relased under GPL [........] but I can?t see any expiring date on the GPLlicencens on the webpage , can you ? From twaffle at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 14:23:53 2008 From: twaffle at gmail.com (Thomas Charron) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:23:53 -0500 Subject: Logitech acquired SightSpeed - possible GPL violation ? In-Reply-To: <364C0C0C-7206-49D5-83EB-C24A1E983E99@cuseeme.de> References: <30dfe2a80810300456i62d576bfjc1985ec0eddaf882@mail.gmail.com> <30dfe2a80810310855r5c02b962x5e03c67570008b3c@mail.gmail.com> <1227176546.20064.43.camel@henriknordstrom.net> <364C0C0C-7206-49D5-83EB-C24A1E983E99@cuseeme.de> Message-ID: <30dfe2a80811200523j67076648la7b3508111f9be54@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 5:42 AM, cuseeme wrote: > Am 20.11.2008 um 11:22 schrieb Henrik Nordstrom: >> On tor, 2008-11-20 at 07:43 +0100, cuseeme wrote: >>> have a last look over here , check the " licensing " and tell me what >>> went wrong here , >>> http://web.archive.org/web/20010413165340/http://sourceforge.net/projects/cu30/ >> The fact that something has been relased under GPL > but I can?t see any expiring date on the GPLlicencens on the webpage , > can you ? Umm, the original authors of a work *STILL* own a work. They can decide to no longer distribute it if they so wish. The authors of an application are not bound by the same license as the license they are giving others to use. They actually *own* it. They don't need a license. Now, if you're angry or annoyed that they decide to close down the project, sorry but tough luck. If you find a copy of it, then you may use it under the terms of the GPL to your hearts content, however they are by no means required to provide it to you. If anything, one could consider that part of the responsibility of the users of GPL software. Redistribution. No one is redistributing what you want, and now your mad. Well, as as was stated before on a a multitude of lists, it's available if you look for it. http://www.google.com/search?q=qvix-1.0.1.tar.gz&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a By the way, some of those where you asking the same question on gpl violations list over 3 years ago. http://lists.gpl-violations.org/pipermail/legal/2005-March/000048.html -- -- Thomas From kfitzner at excelcia.org Thu Nov 20 20:32:26 2008 From: kfitzner at excelcia.org (Kurt Fitzner) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:32:26 -0800 Subject: My project being used for fraud Message-ID: <4925BB4A.6090806@excelcia.org> I am the author of a disk imaging utility called SelfImage. It seems that a fly-by-night web site offering a product called "Witsoft Drive Backup 8" has been actually selling SelfImage. The screen shots they show of their "product" look substantially different than my program, and they mention features SelfImage doesn't have. Now, from a legal standpoint, while this is certainly fraudulent to the end purchaser, my take is that the only standing I would have to complain would be regarding them distributing my software without at least a written offer of the source code. Even finding out who they are is likely to be painful. The web sites they operate from seem to change rapidly (wit-soft.com was the original site, now it's wiitsoft.com), and there are of course no names or phone numbers anywhere. The only way I can think of to find out who they are is to go after the money trail - find out who the software registration/payment company they use is sending the money to. This will require some legal action. I would like to do what I can, but I certainly don't have the resources to hire a lawyer. My questions are, does gpl-violations.org help with this sort of thing? Do they operate outside of Germany? Are there any other ideas on how to track down a real person at this "witsoft"? Any advice I can get would be appreciated. Regards, Kurt Fitzner From mrintegrity at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 21:46:00 2008 From: mrintegrity at gmail.com (mr) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:46:00 +0100 Subject: My project being used for fraud In-Reply-To: <4925BB4A.6090806@excelcia.org> References: <4925BB4A.6090806@excelcia.org> Message-ID: <5dfaf390811201246k1cf12904ge1b1fccff822d72b@mail.gmail.com> 2008/11/20 Kurt Fitzner > I am the author of a disk imaging utility called SelfImage. It seems > that a fly-by-night web site offering a product called "Witsoft Drive > Backup 8" has been actually selling SelfImage. The screen shots they > show of their "product" look substantially different than my program, > and they mention features SelfImage doesn't have. > How do you know it's your software? Have you purchased what they sell? > > Now, from a legal standpoint, while this is certainly fraudulent to the > end purchaser, my take is that the only standing I would have to > complain would be regarding them distributing my software without at > least a written offer of the source code. > > Even finding out who they are is likely to be painful. The web sites > they operate from seem to change rapidly (wit-soft.com was the original > site, now it's wiitsoft.com), and there are of course no names or phone > numbers anywhere. The only way I can think of to find out who they are > is to go after the money trail - find out who the software > registration/payment company they use is sending the money to. This > will require some legal action. I would like to do what I can, but I > certainly don't have the resources to hire a lawyer. > > My questions are, does gpl-violations.org help with this sort of thing? > Do they operate outside of Germany? Are there any other ideas on how > to track down a real person at this "witsoft"? > > Any advice I can get would be appreciated. > > Regards, > > Kurt Fitzner > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gpl-violations.org/pipermail/legal/attachments/20081120/5481c59a/attachment.htm From arnt at c2i.net Fri Nov 21 06:51:26 2008 From: arnt at c2i.net (Arnt Karlsen) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 06:51:26 +0100 Subject: Fw: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses Message-ID: <20081121065126.158110bd@a45.fmb.no> Begin forwarded message: Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 04:41:26 +0100 From: Arnt Karlsen To: flightgear-devel at lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses > On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:16:34 -0500, Matthew wrote in message > : > > > One thing to be *very* careful of is assuming that flightgear has > > some absolute right to control what happens downstream. If this > > company is honoring it's responsibilities under the GPL, there is > > nothing that the FG community can do to prevent it happening. > > > > The GPL enshrines those rights to the recipient, and by extension > > you give up the right of control as an author when you allow code > > to be distributed under the GPL. > > ..except we do _not_ know _whether_ it is being sold under the GPL > here. > > ..the website rather strongly suggest this _is_ software piracy. > > ..therefore the copyright owners has the right to make this fine > seller, _prove_ his compliance to the GPL. (Or, simply call in the > cops. ;o)) > > ..absent evidence of such compliance, this becomes a copyright > infringement and criminal case under most jurisdictions, and > there's _ample_ case law suggesting viable solutions. ;o) > > ..in all fairness, I did find _one_ single mention of the GPL, > in: http://flight-aviator.com/images/fps/thumb/picture-0010.jpg > try search it for "ImGply". ;o) > > > ..pay-pal would know of payments made to these people. ;o) > > ..has anyone mirrored http://www.flight-aviator.com/shop/ etc? > I suspect they _are_ aware of our prodding, I could not buy > _anything_, _anywhere_ on their site, from them. ;o) > > > The main thing that the GPL prevents is 'flightsimpro' creating a > > flightsim that has unique features and linking it into the the main > > binary and preventing the release of that. But if the developer is > > keeping their stuff separate (say an advanced-clean room > > implementation of terrasync using different scenery, or a bridge to > > a different flight sim network), again they have done nothing wrong > > by the GPL (distribution of aggregations is a confusing area). > > > > Contact with this company would clarify most of this quickly. > > ..like I said above, I suspect they _are_ aware of our prodding. > So I too welcome their _thorough_ clarifications. ;o) > > > ..meanwhile, helpful whois etc output? ;o) > arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ jwhois flightprosim.com > [Querying whois.verisign-grs.com] > [Redirected to whois.godaddy.com] > [Querying whois.godaddy.com] > [whois.godaddy.com] > The data contained in GoDaddy.com, Inc.'s WhoIs database, > while believed by the company to be reliable, is provided "as is" > with no guarantee or warranties regarding its accuracy. This > information is provided for the sole purpose of assisting you > in obtaining information about domain name registration records. > Any use of this data for any other purpose is expressly forbidden > without the prior written permission of GoDaddy.com, Inc. By > submitting an inquiry, you agree to these terms of usage and > limitations of warranty. In particular, you agree not to use this > data to allow, enable, or otherwise make possible, dissemination or > collection of this data, in part or in its entirety, for any purpose, > such as the transmission of unsolicited advertising and and > solicitations of any kind, including spam. You further agree not to > use this data to enable high volume, automated or robotic electronic > processes designed to collect or compile this data for any purpose, > including mining this data for your own personal or commercial > purposes. > > Please note: the registrant of the domain name is specified > in the "registrant" field. In most cases, GoDaddy.com, Inc. > is not the registrant of domain names listed in this database. > > > Registrant: > Domains by Proxy, Inc. > DomainsByProxy.com > 15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353 > Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 > United States > > Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com) > Domain Name: FLIGHTPROSIM.COM > Created on: 04-Jun-08 > Expires on: 05-Jun-09 > Last Updated on: 04-Jun-08 > > Administrative Contact: > Private, Registration FLIGHTPROSIM.COM at domainsbyproxy.com > Domains by Proxy, Inc. > DomainsByProxy.com > 15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353 > Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 > United States > (480) 624-2599 Fax -- (480) 624-2598 > > Technical Contact: > Private, Registration FLIGHTPROSIM.COM at domainsbyproxy.com > Domains by Proxy, Inc. > DomainsByProxy.com > 15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353 > Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 > United States > (480) 624-2599 Fax -- (480) 624-2598 > > Domain servers in listed order: > NS45.DOMAINCONTROL.COM > NS46.DOMAINCONTROL.COM > > arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ jwhois flight-aviator.com > [Querying whois.verisign-grs.com] > [Redirected to whois.godaddy.com] > [Querying whois.godaddy.com] > [whois.godaddy.com] > The data contained in GoDaddy.com, Inc.'s WhoIs database, > while believed by the company to be reliable, is provided "as is" > with no guarantee or warranties regarding its accuracy. This > information is provided for the sole purpose of assisting you > in obtaining information about domain name registration records. > Any use of this data for any other purpose is expressly forbidden > without the prior written permission of GoDaddy.com, Inc. By > submitting an inquiry, you agree to these terms of usage and > limitations of warranty. In particular, you agree not to use this > data to allow, enable, or otherwise make possible, dissemination or > collection of this data, in part or in its entirety, for any purpose, > such as the transmission of unsolicited advertising and and > solicitations of any kind, including spam. You further agree not to > use this data to enable high volume, automated or robotic electronic > processes designed to collect or compile this data for any purpose, > including mining this data for your own personal or commercial > purposes. > > Please note: the registrant of the domain name is specified > in the "registrant" field. In most cases, GoDaddy.com, Inc. > is not the registrant of domain names listed in this database. > > > Registrant: > KcKpers Ltd > 5a Jasmine place > Wigram > Christchurch, Canterbury 8004 > New Zealand > > Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com) > Domain Name: FLIGHT-AVIATOR.COM > Created on: 25-Aug-08 > Expires on: 26-Aug-10 > Last Updated on: 25-Aug-08 > > Administrative Contact: > Casey, Andrew domainaccounts at gmail.com > KcKpers Ltd > 5a Jasmine place > Wigram > Christchurch, Canterbury 8004 > New Zealand > (021) 186-3057 Fax -- > > Technical Contact: > Casey, Andrew domainaccounts at gmail.com > KcKpers Ltd > 5a Jasmine place > Wigram > Christchurch, Canterbury 8004 > New Zealand > (021) 186-3057 Fax -- > > Domain servers in listed order: > NS25.DOMAINCONTROL.COM > NS26.DOMAINCONTROL.COM > > arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ dig flight-aviator.com > > ; <<>> DiG 9.5.0-P2 <<>> flight-aviator.com > ;; global options: printcmd > ;; Got answer: > ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 49430 > ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 0 > > ;; QUESTION SECTION: > ;flight-aviator.com. IN A > > ;; ANSWER SECTION: > flight-aviator.com. 3027 IN A 72.167.131.94 > > ;; Query time: 11 msec > ;; SERVER: 192.168.1.1#53(192.168.1.1) > ;; WHEN: Fri Nov 21 03:59:46 2008 > ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 52 > > arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ dig -x 72.167.131.94 > > ; <<>> DiG 9.5.0-P2 <<>> -x 72.167.131.94 > ;; global options: printcmd > ;; Got answer: > ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 31358 > ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 0 > > ;; QUESTION SECTION: > ;94.131.167.72.in-addr.arpa. IN PTR > > ;; ANSWER SECTION: > 94.131.167.72.in-addr.arpa. 3600 IN PTR > p3slh170.shr.phx3.secureserver.net. > > ;; Query time: 147 msec > ;; SERVER: 192.168.1.1#53(192.168.1.1) > ;; WHEN: Fri Nov 21 04:00:00 2008 > ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 92 > > arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ jwhois secureserver.net. > [Querying whois.internic.net] > [Redirected to whois.wildwestdomains.com] > [Querying whois.wildwestdomains.com] > [whois.wildwestdomains.com] > No match for "secureserver.net." in the registrar database. > > arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ > arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ dig secureserver.net > > ; <<>> DiG 9.5.0-P2 <<>> secureserver.net > ;; global options: printcmd > ;; Got answer: > ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 60319 > ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 0 > > ;; QUESTION SECTION: > ;secureserver.net. IN A > > ;; ANSWER SECTION: > secureserver.net. 3600 IN A 208.109.132.208 > > ;; Query time: 146 msec > ;; SERVER: 192.168.1.1#53(192.168.1.1) > ;; WHEN: Fri Nov 21 04:01:02 2008 > ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 50 > > arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ jwhois secureserver.net > [Querying whois.verisign-grs.com] > [Redirected to whois.wildwestdomains.com] > [Querying whois.wildwestdomains.com] > [whois.wildwestdomains.com] > The data contained in this Registrar's Whois database, > while believed by the registrar to be reliable, is provided "as is" > with no guarantee or warranties regarding its accuracy. This > information is provided for the sole purpose of assisting you in > obtaining information about domain name registration records. Any use > of this data for any other purpose is expressly forbidden without > the prior written permission of this registrar. By submitting an > inquiry, you agree to these terms of usage and limitations of > warranty. In particular, you agree not to use this data to allow, > enable, or otherwise make possible, dissemination or collection of > this data, in part or in its entirety, for any purpose, such as the > transmission of unsolicited advertising and solicitations of any > kind, including spam. You further agree not to use this data to > enable high volume, automated or robotic electronic processes > designed to collect or compile this data for any purpose, including > mining this data for your own personal or commercial purposes. > > Please note: the owner of the domain name is specified in the > "registrant" field. In most cases, the Registrar is not the owner of > domain names listed in this database. > > > Registrant: > Wild West Domains, Inc. > 14455 N Hayden Rd #219 > Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 > United States > > Registered through: WWDomains.com > Domain Name: SECURESERVER.NET > Created on: 30-Mar-98 > Expires on: 28-Mar-17 > Last Updated on: 29-Aug-08 > > Administrative Contact: > Wild West Domains, Inc., Wild West Domains, Inc. dns at jomax.net > Wild West Domains, Inc. > 14455 N Hayden Rd #219 > Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 > United States > 4806242500 Fax -- 4805058844 > > Technical Contact: > Wild West Domains, Inc., Wild West Domains, Inc. dns at jomax.net > Wild West Domains, Inc. > 14455 N Hayden Rd #219 > Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 > United States > 4806242500 Fax -- 4805058844 > > Domain servers in listed order: > CNS1.SECURESERVER.NET > CNS2.SECURESERVER.NET > > arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ > > > (A parasite isn't always violating the GPL - a lot of X and kernel > > developers call Ubuntu a parasite since they don't contribute a > > proportional amount upstream.) > > > > Regards... Matthew > > > > > > On 11/20/08, Stuart Buchanan wrote: > > > --- On Thu, 20/11/08, Curtis Olson wrote: > > >> Someone pointed out this site to me. It probably falls into > > >> the category of just barely ok, but I thought I'd post the link > > >> here to get some more eyes on it. > > >> > > >> http://flight-aviator.com/ > > >> > > > > > > One way to discourage this sort of thing would be to include > > > "www.flightgear.org" prominently in the startup screens, in the > > > same way that we include "initializing sub-systems", > > > "initializing scenery". > > > > > > Possibly with an added message along the lines of "Welcome to > > > FlightGear, the free open source flight simulator." > > > > > > That would force the rip-off merchants to at least compile the > > > code, rather than simply replacing some .pngs! > > > > > > -Stuart > > > -- > ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) > ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... > Scenarios always come in sets of three: > best case, worst case, and just in case. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's > challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK > & win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source > event anywhere in the world > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > _______________________________________________ Flightgear-devel > mailing list Flightgear-devel at lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel > -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. From arnt at c2i.net Fri Nov 21 06:02:06 2008 From: arnt at c2i.net (Arnt Karlsen) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 06:02:06 +0100 Subject: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses In-Reply-To: References: <571784.52023.qm@web26007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <9E3FFD1A-2A44-494E-9517-0533A82CF464@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081121060206.546712bb@a45.fmb.no> On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:37:18 -0500, Matthew wrote in message : > Unfortunately, the GPL doesn't account for emotion. For those who > have met RMS, interpersonal relationships don't really fit... Certain > rights are gained, others are given up. > > The best we can hope for is that they are interested in being a part > of a community, the worst we should expect is that they add no value > and sell it as a package. ..in this case I think we have an excellent opportunity to stand up for the GPL by "enforcing it", copyright law and criminal law. ;o) > I don't believe that FG I structured in a way to be able to receive > funds as an organization, and consequently we can only hope that they > will be a good community member and sponsor and assist where they can. > > If people want me to slueth around and find some more info and ..by all means go ahead. ;o) > possibly reach out, please advise. ..here I'd like the copyright owners to weigh in, me, I recommend hiring a lawyer for this job, to make sure we get it _right_. ;o) ..given http://www.idbproductions.com/Products/ and http://idbproductions.com/catalog/ this is _not_ just us, so I'd have Harald Welte and the guys at http://gpl-violations.org/ weigh in with advice on how to proceed. I cc this there. ..playing with dig, jwhois and a web browser and the names I find, it's _amazing_ how I get thrown back to: http://idbproductions.com/catalog/ ;o) > Regards... Matthew > > > On 11/20/08, Tatsuhiro Nishioka wrote: > > Hi, > > > > For clarifying my position, I don't care if they sell flightfear. > > But I do care if that affects our project in either technically or > > emotionally. According to some threads or posts in the list and the > > forum, it seems that many developers and users do not like the > > current situation. > > > > I guess the problem is they don't make any communication with us > > including contribution. I do welcome some third parties sell > > flightgear if they are friendly and hopefully make a contribution. > > Needless to say they need to observe the GPL thingies. > > > > You can pack everything into either DVD or thumb drive and sell it > > as long as it doesn't brake any legal issue. > > > > But... For me it's more on human relation issue. As long as they are > > friendly and actively open to us, then we can collaborate and make > > flightfear better from both open source and bussiness aspects. > > > > I think there is still much room in improving the usability, > > functionality, and quality of flightgear. If marchants can collect > > such needs and give some offers and feedback (preferably in > > implementation, but just an idea is OK) to flightgear community, > > that'll be super good. > > > > Look forward to seeing reply from them, > > > > Tat > > > > p.s. > > Sorry for full quote. I'm writing on iPhone. this fun tool is > > missing copy-past and cut-paste things. > > > > On Nov 21, 2008, at 10:16 AM, "Matthew Tippett" > > wrote: > > > >> One thing to be *very* careful of is assuming that flightgear has > >> some absolute right to control what happens downstream. If this > >> company is honoring it's responsibilities under the GPL, there is > >> nothing that the FG community can do to prevent it happening. > >> > >> The GPL enshrines those rights to the recipient, and by extension > >> you give up the right of control as an author when you allow code > >> to be distributed under the GPL. > >> > >> The main thing that the GPL prevents is 'flightsimpro' creating a > >> flightsim that has unique features and linking it into the the main > >> binary and preventing the release of that. But if the developer is > >> keeping their stuff separate (say an advanced-clean room > >> implementation of terrasync using different scenery, or a bridge > >> to a different flight sim network), again they have done nothing > >> wrong by the GPL (distribution of aggregations is a confusing > >> area). > >> > >> Contact with this company would clarify most of this quickly. > >> > >> (A parasite isn't always violating the GPL - a lot of X and kernel > >> developers call Ubuntu a parasite since they don't contribute a > >> proportional amount upstream.) > >> > >> Regards... Matthew > >> > >> > >> On 11/20/08, Stuart Buchanan wrote: > >>> --- On Thu, 20/11/08, Curtis Olson wrote: > >>>> Someone pointed out this site to me. It probably falls into > >>>> the category of just barely ok, but I thought I'd post the link > >>>> here to get some more eyes on it. > >>>> > >>>> http://flight-aviator.com/ > >>>> > >>> > >>> One way to discourage this sort of thing would be to include > >>> "www.flightgear.org" prominently in the startup screens, in the > >>> same way that we include "initializing sub-systems", > >>> "initializing scenery". > >>> > >>> Possibly with an added message along the lines of "Welcome to > >>> FlightGear, > >>> the free open source flight simulator." > >>> > >>> That would force the rip-off merchants to at least compile the > >>> code, rather than simply replacing some .pngs! > >>> > >>> -Stuart > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> --- > >>> --- > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's > >>> challenge > >>> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win > >>> great > >>> prizes > >>> Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in > >>> the world > >>> http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Flightgear-devel mailing list > >>> Flightgear-devel at lists.sourceforge.net > >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel > >>> > >> > >> -- > >> Sent from my mobile device > >> > >> --- > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's > >> challenge > >> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win > >> great prizes > >> Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in > >> the world > >> http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Flightgear-devel mailing list > >> Flightgear-devel at lists.sourceforge.net > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's > > challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin > > SDK & win great prizes > > Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in > > the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Flightgear-devel mailing list > > Flightgear-devel at lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel > > > -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. From arnt at c2i.net Fri Nov 21 07:20:32 2008 From: arnt at c2i.net (Arnt Karlsen) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:20:32 +0100 Subject: Fw: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses Message-ID: <20081121072032.46401489@a45.fmb.no> Hi, ..my apologies to legal at lists.gpl-violations.org for the FlightGear top-mix posts fw'd and cc'd to you, FlightGear strives to be multi-platform. ;o) Begin forwarded message: Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 05:21:19 +0100 From: Arnt Karlsen To: flightgear-devel at lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses > On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:11:27 -0700, Ron wrote in message > <1227237087.10857.360.camel at ip120.jentronics.com>: > > > On Thu, 2008-11-20 at 15:43 -0600, Curtis Olson wrote: > > > Someone pointed out this site to me. It probably falls into the > > > category of just barely ok, but I thought I'd post the link here > > > to get some more eyes on it. > > > > > > http://flight-aviator.com/ > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Curt. > > > -- > > > > > > http://www.idbproductions.com/Products/FlightProSim/original/FlightGear% > > 20Flight%20Simulator.htm > > > > They're mirroring the home page for us... > > ..how nice. ;o) > And it's not only us: http://idbproductions.com/catalog/ > and http://www.idbproductions.com/Products/ ... > I shall be _really_ intrigued to hear _this_ story. ;o) > > ..and I think this story belongs here http://groklaw.net/ > and here: http://gpl-violations.org/mailinglists.html . > > ..same people: > arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ jwhois idbproductions.com > [Querying whois.verisign-grs.com] > [Redirected to whois.godaddy.com] > [Querying whois.godaddy.com] > [whois.godaddy.com] > The data contained in GoDaddy.com, Inc.'s WhoIs database, > while believed by the company to be reliable, is provided "as is" > with no guarantee or warranties regarding its accuracy. This > information is provided for the sole purpose of assisting you > in obtaining information about domain name registration records. > Any use of this data for any other purpose is expressly forbidden > without the prior written permission of GoDaddy.com, Inc. By > submitting an inquiry, you agree to these terms of usage and > limitations of warranty. In particular, you agree not to use this > data to allow, enable, or otherwise make possible, dissemination or > collection of this data, in part or in its entirety, for any purpose, > such as the transmission of unsolicited advertising and and > solicitations of any kind, including spam. You further agree not to > use this data to enable high volume, automated or robotic electronic > processes designed to collect or compile this data for any purpose, > including mining this data for your own personal or commercial > purposes. > > Please note: the registrant of the domain name is specified > in the "registrant" field. In most cases, GoDaddy.com, Inc. > is not the registrant of domain names listed in this database. > > > Registrant: > KcKpers Ltd > 5a Jasmine place > Wigram > Christchurch, Canterbury 8004 > New Zealand > > Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com) > Domain Name: IDBPRODUCTIONS.COM > Created on: 27-Aug-07 > Expires on: 28-Aug-10 > Last Updated on: 27-Aug-07 > > Administrative Contact: > Casey, Andrew sales at kckpers.com > KcKpers Ltd > 5a Jasmine place > Wigram > Christchurch, Canterbury 8004 > New Zealand > 0211863057 Fax -- > > Technical Contact: > Casey, Andrew sales at kckpers.com > KcKpers Ltd > 5a Jasmine place > Wigram > Christchurch, Canterbury 8004 > New Zealand > 0211863057 Fax -- > > Domain servers in listed order: > NS1.SWIFTCO.NET > NS2.SWIFTCO.NET > > arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ > arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ jwhois flight-aviator.com > [Cached] > [whois.godaddy.com] > The data contained in GoDaddy.com, Inc.'s WhoIs database, > while believed by the company to be reliable, is provided "as is" > with no guarantee or warranties regarding its accuracy. This > information is provided for the sole purpose of assisting you > in obtaining information about domain name registration records. > Any use of this data for any other purpose is expressly forbidden > without the prior written permission of GoDaddy.com, Inc. By > submitting an inquiry, you agree to these terms of usage and > limitations of warranty. In particular, you agree not to use this > data to allow, enable, or otherwise make possible, dissemination or > collection of this data, in part or in its entirety, for any purpose, > such as the transmission of unsolicited advertising and and > solicitations of any kind, including spam. You further agree not to > use this data to enable high volume, automated or robotic electronic > processes designed to collect or compile this data for any purpose, > including mining this data for your own personal or commercial > purposes. > > Please note: the registrant of the domain name is specified > in the "registrant" field. In most cases, GoDaddy.com, Inc. > is not the registrant of domain names listed in this database. > > > Registrant: > KcKpers Ltd > 5a Jasmine place > Wigram > Christchurch, Canterbury 8004 > New Zealand > > Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com) > Domain Name: FLIGHT-AVIATOR.COM > Created on: 25-Aug-08 > Expires on: 26-Aug-10 > Last Updated on: 25-Aug-08 > > Administrative Contact: > Casey, Andrew domainaccounts at gmail.com > KcKpers Ltd > 5a Jasmine place > Wigram > Christchurch, Canterbury 8004 > New Zealand > (021) 186-3057 Fax -- > > Technical Contact: > Casey, Andrew domainaccounts at gmail.com > KcKpers Ltd > 5a Jasmine place > Wigram > Christchurch, Canterbury 8004 > New Zealand > (021) 186-3057 Fax -- > > Domain servers in listed order: > NS25.DOMAINCONTROL.COM > NS26.DOMAINCONTROL.COM > > > -- > ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) > ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... > Scenarios always come in sets of three: > best case, worst case, and just in case. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's > challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK > & win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source > event anywhere in the world > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > _______________________________________________ Flightgear-devel > mailing list Flightgear-devel at lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel > -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. From arnt at c2i.net Fri Nov 21 07:21:06 2008 From: arnt at c2i.net (Arnt Karlsen) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:21:06 +0100 Subject: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses In-Reply-To: <20081121060206.546712bb@a45.fmb.no> References: <571784.52023.qm@web26007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <9E3FFD1A-2A44-494E-9517-0533A82CF464@gmail.com> <20081121060206.546712bb@a45.fmb.no> Message-ID: <20081121072106.1c777334@a45.fmb.no> Hi, ..my apologies to legal at lists.gpl-violations.org for the FlightGear top-mix posts fw'd and cc'd to you, FlightGear strives to be multi-platform. ;o) On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 06:02:06 +0100, Arnt wrote in message <20081121060206.546712bb at a45.fmb.no>: > On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:37:18 -0500, Matthew wrote in message > : > > > Unfortunately, the GPL doesn't account for emotion. For those who > > have met RMS, interpersonal relationships don't really fit... > > Certain rights are gained, others are given up. > > > > The best we can hope for is that they are interested in being a part > > of a community, the worst we should expect is that they add no value > > and sell it as a package. > > ..in this case I think we have an excellent opportunity to stand up > for the GPL by "enforcing it", copyright law and criminal law. ;o) ..FG is still GPLv2? That means these people will need _explicit_ permission from _each_ copyright owner, _if_ there has been _any_ violation of the license. ..absent such explicit permission from _any_ copyright owner, his or her no longer permitted code must be removed, and the vendor's binaries must be recompiled to exclude that forbidden code. ..the GPLv3 is a bit more lenient right there, ;o) the bad guys are forgiven under the GPLv3 once they become _good_ guys by _complying_. ;o) ..fwiw, I ran wget -m -l0 http://idbproductions.com/catalog/ too: ;o) FINISHED --2008-11-21 07:09:33-- Downloaded: 4624 files, 169M in 52m 37s (54.7 KB/s) > > I don't believe that FG I structured in a way to be able to receive > > funds as an organization, and consequently we can only hope that > > they will be a good community member and sponsor and assist where > > they can. > > > > If people want me to slueth around and find some more info and > > ..by all means go ahead. ;o) > > > possibly reach out, please advise. ..me, I find this rather instructive: ;o) http://gpl-violations.org/faq/legal-faq.html > ..here I'd like the copyright owners to weigh in, me, I recommend > hiring a lawyer for this job, to make sure we get it _right_. ;o) > > ..given http://www.idbproductions.com/Products/ and > http://idbproductions.com/catalog/ this is _not_ just us, so I'd > have Harald Welte and the guys at http://gpl-violations.org/ > weigh in with advice on how to proceed. I cc this there. > > ..playing with dig, jwhois and a web browser and the > names I find, it's _amazing_ how I get thrown back to: > http://idbproductions.com/catalog/ ;o) > > > Regards... Matthew > > > > > > On 11/20/08, Tatsuhiro Nishioka wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > For clarifying my position, I don't care if they sell flightfear. > > > But I do care if that affects our project in either technically or > > > emotionally. According to some threads or posts in the list and > > > the forum, it seems that many developers and users do not like the > > > current situation. > > > > > > I guess the problem is they don't make any communication with us > > > including contribution. I do welcome some third parties sell > > > flightgear if they are friendly and hopefully make a contribution. > > > Needless to say they need to observe the GPL thingies. > > > > > > You can pack everything into either DVD or thumb drive and sell it > > > as long as it doesn't brake any legal issue. > > > > > > But... For me it's more on human relation issue. As long as they > > > are friendly and actively open to us, then we can collaborate and > > > make flightfear better from both open source and bussiness > > > aspects. > > > > > > I think there is still much room in improving the usability, > > > functionality, and quality of flightgear. If marchants can collect > > > such needs and give some offers and feedback (preferably in > > > implementation, but just an idea is OK) to flightgear community, > > > that'll be super good. > > > > > > Look forward to seeing reply from them, > > > > > > Tat > > > > > > p.s. > > > Sorry for full quote. I'm writing on iPhone. this fun tool is > > > missing copy-past and cut-paste things. > > > > > > On Nov 21, 2008, at 10:16 AM, "Matthew Tippett" > > > wrote: > > > > > >> One thing to be *very* careful of is assuming that flightgear has > > >> some absolute right to control what happens downstream. If this > > >> company is honoring it's responsibilities under the GPL, there is > > >> nothing that the FG community can do to prevent it happening. > > >> > > >> The GPL enshrines those rights to the recipient, and by extension > > >> you give up the right of control as an author when you allow code > > >> to be distributed under the GPL. > > >> > > >> The main thing that the GPL prevents is 'flightsimpro' creating a > > >> flightsim that has unique features and linking it into the the > > >> main binary and preventing the release of that. But if the > > >> developer is keeping their stuff separate (say an advanced-clean > > >> room implementation of terrasync using different scenery, or a > > >> bridge to a different flight sim network), again they have done > > >> nothing wrong by the GPL (distribution of aggregations is a > > >> confusing area). > > >> > > >> Contact with this company would clarify most of this quickly. > > >> > > >> (A parasite isn't always violating the GPL - a lot of X and > > >> kernel developers call Ubuntu a parasite since they don't > > >> contribute a proportional amount upstream.) > > >> > > >> Regards... Matthew > > >> > > >> > > >> On 11/20/08, Stuart Buchanan > > >> wrote: > > >>> --- On Thu, 20/11/08, Curtis Olson wrote: > > >>>> Someone pointed out this site to me. It probably falls into > > >>>> the category of just barely ok, but I thought I'd post the link > > >>>> here to get some more eyes on it. > > >>>> > > >>>> http://flight-aviator.com/ > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> One way to discourage this sort of thing would be to include > > >>> "www.flightgear.org" prominently in the startup screens, in the > > >>> same way that we include "initializing sub-systems", > > >>> "initializing scenery". > > >>> > > >>> Possibly with an added message along the lines of "Welcome to > > >>> FlightGear, > > >>> the free open source flight simulator." > > >>> > > >>> That would force the rip-off merchants to at least compile the > > >>> code, rather than simply replacing some .pngs! > > >>> > > >>> -Stuart > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> --- > > >>> --- > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move > > >>> Developer's challenge > > >>> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win > > >>> great > > >>> prizes > > >>> Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere > > >>> in the world > > >>> http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Flightgear-devel mailing list > > >>> Flightgear-devel at lists.sourceforge.net > > >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel > > >>> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Sent from my mobile device > > >> > > >> --- > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move > > >> Developer's challenge > > >> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win > > >> great prizes > > >> Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in > > >> the world > > >> http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Flightgear-devel mailing list > > >> Flightgear-devel at lists.sourceforge.net > > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's > > > challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin > > > SDK & win great prizes > > > Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in > > > the world > > > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > > > _______________________________________________ Flightgear-devel > > > mailing list Flightgear-devel at lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel > > > > > > > -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. From arnt at c2i.net Fri Nov 21 07:49:51 2008 From: arnt at c2i.net (Arnt Karlsen) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:49:51 +0100 Subject: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses In-Reply-To: References: <571784.52023.qm@web26007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <9E3FFD1A-2A44-494E-9517-0533A82CF464@gmail.com> <20081121060206.546712bb@a45.fmb.no> Message-ID: <20081121074951.0b646d2c@a45.fmb.no> Hi, ..I apologize, this case or these cases should probably have gone to license-violation at gpl-violations.org rather than legal at lists.gpl-violations.org, but flightgear-devel at lists.sourceforge.net is also a public forum. On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:51:38 -0500, Matthew wrote in message : > Still, the question is if this company is violating the GPL. We have > no proof of that. ..I'm checking my wee mirrors to find out. ;o) > (The gpl-violations.org guys go after people who > are not honoring the release of source for both distributed and > derived works - typically in embedded systems. Usually they settle > when the company honors the GPL and provides source or stops > distributing the offending product.) ..aye, this means they have valuable experience and can guide us. ;o) > At this stage it appears that they are simply selling a binary > distribution of a set of OSS applications. ..then, in good faith, they shouldn't mind saying so. My opinion now is, these people are common criminals, or a tSCOG-style Microsoft proxy team. http://gpl-violations.org/faq/violation-faq.html http://gpl-violations.org/faq/legal-faq.html http://gpl-violations.org/faq/sourcecode-faq.html http://gpl-violations.org/faq/vendor-faq.html > As mentioned before, ethics or questionable business practices aside, > we need to focus on what they are actually violating. Even the > wikipedia screen shots are licensed under the GPL can be re-used > freely. ..aye. Removals of "FlightGear.org" and "GPL" etc around these screen shots, would prove a few things though. ;o) ..and keep in mind, top posting is not quite comme-il-feaut at legal at lists.gpl-violations.org. ;o) > Regards... Matthew > > > > > > > On 11/21/08, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:37:18 -0500, Matthew wrote in message > > : > > > >> Unfortunately, the GPL doesn't account for emotion. For those who > >> have met RMS, interpersonal relationships don't really fit... > >> Certain rights are gained, others are given up. > >> > >> The best we can hope for is that they are interested in being a > >> part of a community, the worst we should expect is that they add > >> no value and sell it as a package. > > > > ..in this case I think we have an excellent opportunity to stand up > > for the GPL by "enforcing it", copyright law and criminal law. ;o) > > > >> I don't believe that FG I structured in a way to be able to receive > >> funds as an organization, and consequently we can only hope that > >> they will be a good community member and sponsor and assist where > >> they can. > >> > >> If people want me to slueth around and find some more info and > > > > ..by all means go ahead. ;o) > > > >> possibly reach out, please advise. > > > > ..here I'd like the copyright owners to weigh in, me, I recommend > > hiring a lawyer for this job, to make sure we get it _right_. ;o) > > > > ..given http://www.idbproductions.com/Products/ and > > http://idbproductions.com/catalog/ this is _not_ just us, so I'd > > have Harald Welte and the guys at http://gpl-violations.org/ > > weigh in with advice on how to proceed. I cc this there. > > > > ..playing with dig, jwhois and a web browser and the > > names I find, it's _amazing_ how I get thrown back to: > > http://idbproductions.com/catalog/ ;o) > > > >> Regards... Matthew > >> > >> > >> On 11/20/08, Tatsuhiro Nishioka wrote: > >> > Hi, > >> > > >> > For clarifying my position, I don't care if they sell flightfear. > >> > But I do care if that affects our project in either technically > >> > or emotionally. According to some threads or posts in the list > >> > and the forum, it seems that many developers and users do not > >> > like the current situation. > >> > > >> > I guess the problem is they don't make any communication with us > >> > including contribution. I do welcome some third parties sell > >> > flightgear if they are friendly and hopefully make a > >> > contribution. Needless to say they need to observe the GPL > >> > thingies. > >> > > >> > You can pack everything into either DVD or thumb drive and sell > >> > it as long as it doesn't brake any legal issue. > >> > > >> > But... For me it's more on human relation issue. As long as they > >> > are friendly and actively open to us, then we can collaborate > >> > and make flightfear better from both open source and bussiness > >> > aspects. > >> > > >> > I think there is still much room in improving the usability, > >> > functionality, and quality of flightgear. If marchants can > >> > collect such needs and give some offers and feedback (preferably > >> > in implementation, but just an idea is OK) to flightgear > >> > community, that'll be super good. > >> > > >> > Look forward to seeing reply from them, > >> > > >> > Tat > >> > > >> > p.s. > >> > Sorry for full quote. I'm writing on iPhone. this fun tool is > >> > missing copy-past and cut-paste things. > >> > > >> > On Nov 21, 2008, at 10:16 AM, "Matthew Tippett" > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> >> One thing to be *very* careful of is assuming that flightgear > >> >> has some absolute right to control what happens downstream. If > >> >> this company is honoring it's responsibilities under the GPL, > >> >> there is nothing that the FG community can do to prevent it > >> >> happening. > >> >> > >> >> The GPL enshrines those rights to the recipient, and by > >> >> extension you give up the right of control as an author when > >> >> you allow code to be distributed under the GPL. > >> >> > >> >> The main thing that the GPL prevents is 'flightsimpro' creating > >> >> a flightsim that has unique features and linking it into the > >> >> the main binary and preventing the release of that. But if the > >> >> developer is keeping their stuff separate (say an > >> >> advanced-clean room implementation of terrasync using different > >> >> scenery, or a bridge to a different flight sim network), again > >> >> they have done nothing wrong by the GPL (distribution of > >> >> aggregations is a confusing area). > >> >> > >> >> Contact with this company would clarify most of this quickly. > >> >> > >> >> (A parasite isn't always violating the GPL - a lot of X and > >> >> kernel developers call Ubuntu a parasite since they don't > >> >> contribute a proportional amount upstream.) > >> >> > >> >> Regards... Matthew > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On 11/20/08, Stuart Buchanan > >> >> wrote: > >> >>> --- On Thu, 20/11/08, Curtis Olson wrote: > >> >>>> Someone pointed out this site to me. It probably falls into > >> >>>> the category of just barely ok, but I thought I'd post the > >> >>>> link here to get some more eyes on it. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> http://flight-aviator.com/ > >> >>>> > >> >>> > >> >>> One way to discourage this sort of thing would be to include > >> >>> "www.flightgear.org" prominently in the startup screens, in the > >> >>> same way that we include "initializing sub-systems", > >> >>> "initializing scenery". > >> >>> > >> >>> Possibly with an added message along the lines of "Welcome to > >> >>> FlightGear, > >> >>> the free open source flight simulator." > >> >>> > >> >>> That would force the rip-off merchants to at least compile the > >> >>> code, rather than simply replacing some .pngs! > >> >>> > >> >>> -Stuart -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. From arnt at c2i.net Fri Nov 21 06:52:11 2008 From: arnt at c2i.net (Arnt Karlsen) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 06:52:11 +0100 Subject: Fw: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses Message-ID: <20081121065211.0a3d412a@a45.fmb.no> Begin forwarded message: Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 05:21:19 +0100 From: Arnt Karlsen To: flightgear-devel at lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses > On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:11:27 -0700, Ron wrote in message > <1227237087.10857.360.camel at ip120.jentronics.com>: > > > On Thu, 2008-11-20 at 15:43 -0600, Curtis Olson wrote: > > > Someone pointed out this site to me. It probably falls into the > > > category of just barely ok, but I thought I'd post the link here > > > to get some more eyes on it. > > > > > > http://flight-aviator.com/ > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Curt. > > > -- > > > > > > http://www.idbproductions.com/Products/FlightProSim/original/FlightGear% > > 20Flight%20Simulator.htm > > > > They're mirroring the home page for us... > > ..how nice. ;o) > And it's not only us: http://idbproductions.com/catalog/ > and http://www.idbproductions.com/Products/ ... > I shall be _really_ intrigued to hear _this_ story. ;o) > > ..and I think this story belongs here http://groklaw.net/ > and here: http://gpl-violations.org/mailinglists.html . > > ..same people: > arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ jwhois idbproductions.com > [Querying whois.verisign-grs.com] > [Redirected to whois.godaddy.com] > [Querying whois.godaddy.com] > [whois.godaddy.com] > The data contained in GoDaddy.com, Inc.'s WhoIs database, > while believed by the company to be reliable, is provided "as is" > with no guarantee or warranties regarding its accuracy. This > information is provided for the sole purpose of assisting you > in obtaining information about domain name registration records. > Any use of this data for any other purpose is expressly forbidden > without the prior written permission of GoDaddy.com, Inc. By > submitting an inquiry, you agree to these terms of usage and > limitations of warranty. In particular, you agree not to use this > data to allow, enable, or otherwise make possible, dissemination or > collection of this data, in part or in its entirety, for any purpose, > such as the transmission of unsolicited advertising and and > solicitations of any kind, including spam. You further agree not to > use this data to enable high volume, automated or robotic electronic > processes designed to collect or compile this data for any purpose, > including mining this data for your own personal or commercial > purposes. > > Please note: the registrant of the domain name is specified > in the "registrant" field. In most cases, GoDaddy.com, Inc. > is not the registrant of domain names listed in this database. > > > Registrant: > KcKpers Ltd > 5a Jasmine place > Wigram > Christchurch, Canterbury 8004 > New Zealand > > Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com) > Domain Name: IDBPRODUCTIONS.COM > Created on: 27-Aug-07 > Expires on: 28-Aug-10 > Last Updated on: 27-Aug-07 > > Administrative Contact: > Casey, Andrew sales at kckpers.com > KcKpers Ltd > 5a Jasmine place > Wigram > Christchurch, Canterbury 8004 > New Zealand > 0211863057 Fax -- > > Technical Contact: > Casey, Andrew sales at kckpers.com > KcKpers Ltd > 5a Jasmine place > Wigram > Christchurch, Canterbury 8004 > New Zealand > 0211863057 Fax -- > > Domain servers in listed order: > NS1.SWIFTCO.NET > NS2.SWIFTCO.NET > > arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ > arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ jwhois flight-aviator.com > [Cached] > [whois.godaddy.com] > The data contained in GoDaddy.com, Inc.'s WhoIs database, > while believed by the company to be reliable, is provided "as is" > with no guarantee or warranties regarding its accuracy. This > information is provided for the sole purpose of assisting you > in obtaining information about domain name registration records. > Any use of this data for any other purpose is expressly forbidden > without the prior written permission of GoDaddy.com, Inc. By > submitting an inquiry, you agree to these terms of usage and > limitations of warranty. In particular, you agree not to use this > data to allow, enable, or otherwise make possible, dissemination or > collection of this data, in part or in its entirety, for any purpose, > such as the transmission of unsolicited advertising and and > solicitations of any kind, including spam. You further agree not to > use this data to enable high volume, automated or robotic electronic > processes designed to collect or compile this data for any purpose, > including mining this data for your own personal or commercial > purposes. > > Please note: the registrant of the domain name is specified > in the "registrant" field. In most cases, GoDaddy.com, Inc. > is not the registrant of domain names listed in this database. > > > Registrant: > KcKpers Ltd > 5a Jasmine place > Wigram > Christchurch, Canterbury 8004 > New Zealand > > Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com) > Domain Name: FLIGHT-AVIATOR.COM > Created on: 25-Aug-08 > Expires on: 26-Aug-10 > Last Updated on: 25-Aug-08 > > Administrative Contact: > Casey, Andrew domainaccounts at gmail.com > KcKpers Ltd > 5a Jasmine place > Wigram > Christchurch, Canterbury 8004 > New Zealand > (021) 186-3057 Fax -- > > Technical Contact: > Casey, Andrew domainaccounts at gmail.com > KcKpers Ltd > 5a Jasmine place > Wigram > Christchurch, Canterbury 8004 > New Zealand > (021) 186-3057 Fax -- > > Domain servers in listed order: > NS25.DOMAINCONTROL.COM > NS26.DOMAINCONTROL.COM > > > -- > ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) > ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... > Scenarios always come in sets of three: > best case, worst case, and just in case. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's > challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK > & win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source > event anywhere in the world > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > _______________________________________________ Flightgear-devel > mailing list Flightgear-devel at lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel > -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. From arnt at c2i.net Fri Nov 21 09:46:18 2008 From: arnt at c2i.net (Arnt Karlsen) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:46:18 +0100 Subject: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses In-Reply-To: References: <571784.52023.qm@web26007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <9E3FFD1A-2A44-494E-9517-0533A82CF464@gmail.com> <20081121060206.546712bb@a45.fmb.no> <20081121074951.0b646d2c@a45.fmb.no> Message-ID: <20081121094618.346fb07a@a45.fmb.no> On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 02:25:22 -0500, Matthew wrote in message : > Comments within. (I am personally uncomfortable including the GPL > violations people until we have a clear direction from the leadership > of the flightgear project as to the direction the project would like > to go). ..ok, this far I have found a fake physical address, suggesting my suspicion is confirmable. So I cc. ..unless New Zealand allow a fake address, a fake company, a fake name etc, these are illegally registred web sites. > On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 1:49 AM, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > > Hi, > > ... > > > > > Still, the question is if this company is violating the GPL. We > > > have no proof of that. > > > > ..I'm checking my wee mirrors to find out. ;o) > > > The GPL can only be violated when they distribute the software. Their > website doesn't entail them distributing. Action can only be taken > if there is a clear violation (ie: they distribute a flightgear > derived product without an offer of distributing source. Who knows, > they may include the source in the DVD or CD that they ship. > > I personally don't want to charge forward and claim a violation when > nothing has been distributed. ..well maybe you don't have to ;o), there's 7Zip, Wesnoth etc at http://www.idbproductions.com/Products/ all rather strongly suggesting at least a conspiracy to commit software piracy, rather than lawful distribution under the GPL. So, I am not worried about defending my suspicions in courts. ;o) > > (The gpl-violations.org guys go after people who > > are not honoring the release of source for both distributed and > > derived works - typically in embedded systems. Usually they settle > > when the company honors the GPL and provides source or stops > > distributing the offending product.) > > ..aye, this means they have valuable experience > > and can guide us. ;o) > > > > > At this stage it appears that they are simply selling a binary > > > distribution of a set of OSS applications. > > > > ..then, in good faith, they shouldn't mind saying so. > > My opinion now is, these people are common criminals, > > or a tSCOG-style Microsoft proxy team. > > http://gpl-violations.org/faq/violation-faq.html > > http://gpl-violations.org/faq/legal-faq.html > > http://gpl-violations.org/faq/sourcecode-faq.html > > http://gpl-violations.org/faq/vendor-faq.html > > > > But they do say that - http://flight-aviator.com/ > > === > [image: flight]Based on the award winning Flight Gear project > > [image: flight]All from the thriving Open Source Community, this sim > is forever changing > > === ..but _no_ mention of _which_ license. > > > As mentioned before, ethics or questionable business practices > > > aside, we need to focus on what they are actually violating. > > > Even the wikipedia screen shots are licensed under the GPL can be > > > re-used freely. > > > > ..aye. Removals of "FlightGear.org" and "GPL" etc around > > these screen shots, would prove a few things though. ;o) > > > I don't see what you are saying. The screenshots don't seem to be > trimmed - beyond a possible crop here or there. ..we shall see. ;o) > http://www.flight-aviator.com/images/fps/multiplayer-map.jpg as well > as http://www.flight-aviator.com/images/getstart11x.jpg don't seem to > be hiding it from being (or being derived from flightgear). The lack > of attribution is not quite nice, but is a common mistake. .._active_ removal takes it that one step further. ;o) > Again, if the flightgear leadership, or the creators (and hence > copyright owners) of the images have particular concern then that can > put forward when a direction is chosen. ..this is not just us (FG). > > ..and keep in mind, top posting is not quite comme-il-feaut > > at legal at lists.gpl-violations.org. ;o) > > > I understand, but the google mobile client provides no options to > inline quote or bottom quote. (I would actually expect that from a > legal perspective a top-posted email thread is far more valuable than > a inline posted... But that is a different discussion. :) ..in those cases we have real mail clients that can handle mail list threads in a manner convenient for litigation discovery. ;o) > Please note that I am not saying take no action, I am just saying > take a few days to gather what each copyright owner who is impacted > wants and ensure a plan is prepared before taking action. > > Remember, the emotive aspect - although it is real and affects people > personally - should not be the prime driver for individuals. The > legal framework that each person has implicitly or explicitly has > agreed to is what should be driven. (I had a long discussion with > some people from Creative Commons that people should also be made > aware of what they are giving up. If you CC-Share Alike an image, > and then see that image being used to promote something you > personally find distasteful - have given up your right to control > what the downstream person does with the image. You have no > fundamental recourse unless the downstream restricts other people > from the Share Alike rights within the license. You may not like it, > but you gave up your right to control that when you licensed it. The > same goes with the GPL. ..er, not quite, especially not under GPLv2, but let's concentrate on _fact_ discovery for now, eh? ;o) > As mentioned before, I see the baseline direction should be at least > the following. > > 1) Respect copyright - The images and and so on should attributed > fully 2) Respect the GPL - If the flightgear derived binaries that are > distributed are not accompanied by source or an offer to provide the > source that created the binary, then actions should be taken to > ensure that it is available. > > 1) is fairly obvious, but 2) will need someone to buy the CD before > taking further actions. ..or _otherwise_ find evidence of copyright violations. ;o) > Regards, > > Matthew -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. From twaffle at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 15:44:34 2008 From: twaffle at gmail.com (Thomas Charron) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:44:34 -0500 Subject: Fw: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses In-Reply-To: <20081121065126.158110bd@a45.fmb.no> References: <20081121065126.158110bd@a45.fmb.no> Message-ID: <30dfe2a80811210644j21646c13j2f30459839a0730b@mail.gmail.com> So, file a complaint against them at paypal. That'll get their attention. Thomas On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 12:51 AM, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > > Begin forwarded message: > > Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 04:41:26 +0100 > From: Arnt Karlsen > To: flightgear-devel at lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under > dubious pretenses > > >> On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:16:34 -0500, Matthew wrote in message >> : >> >> > One thing to be *very* careful of is assuming that flightgear has >> > some absolute right to control what happens downstream. If this >> > company is honoring it's responsibilities under the GPL, there is >> > nothing that the FG community can do to prevent it happening. >> > >> > The GPL enshrines those rights to the recipient, and by extension >> > you give up the right of control as an author when you allow code >> > to be distributed under the GPL. >> >> ..except we do _not_ know _whether_ it is being sold under the GPL >> here. >> >> ..the website rather strongly suggest this _is_ software piracy. >> >> ..therefore the copyright owners has the right to make this fine >> seller, _prove_ his compliance to the GPL. (Or, simply call in the >> cops. ;o)) >> >> ..absent evidence of such compliance, this becomes a copyright >> infringement and criminal case under most jurisdictions, and >> there's _ample_ case law suggesting viable solutions. ;o) >> >> ..in all fairness, I did find _one_ single mention of the GPL, >> in: http://flight-aviator.com/images/fps/thumb/picture-0010.jpg >> try search it for "ImGply". ;o) >> >> >> ..pay-pal would know of payments made to these people. ;o) >> >> ..has anyone mirrored http://www.flight-aviator.com/shop/ etc? >> I suspect they _are_ aware of our prodding, I could not buy >> _anything_, _anywhere_ on their site, from them. ;o) >> >> > The main thing that the GPL prevents is 'flightsimpro' creating a >> > flightsim that has unique features and linking it into the the main >> > binary and preventing the release of that. But if the developer is >> > keeping their stuff separate (say an advanced-clean room >> > implementation of terrasync using different scenery, or a bridge to >> > a different flight sim network), again they have done nothing wrong >> > by the GPL (distribution of aggregations is a confusing area). >> > >> > Contact with this company would clarify most of this quickly. >> >> ..like I said above, I suspect they _are_ aware of our prodding. >> So I too welcome their _thorough_ clarifications. ;o) >> >> >> ..meanwhile, helpful whois etc output? ;o) >> arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ jwhois flightprosim.com >> [Querying whois.verisign-grs.com] >> [Redirected to whois.godaddy.com] >> [Querying whois.godaddy.com] >> [whois.godaddy.com] >> The data contained in GoDaddy.com, Inc.'s WhoIs database, >> while believed by the company to be reliable, is provided "as is" >> with no guarantee or warranties regarding its accuracy. This >> information is provided for the sole purpose of assisting you >> in obtaining information about domain name registration records. >> Any use of this data for any other purpose is expressly forbidden >> without the prior written permission of GoDaddy.com, Inc. By >> submitting an inquiry, you agree to these terms of usage and >> limitations of warranty. In particular, you agree not to use this >> data to allow, enable, or otherwise make possible, dissemination or >> collection of this data, in part or in its entirety, for any purpose, >> such as the transmission of unsolicited advertising and and >> solicitations of any kind, including spam. You further agree not to >> use this data to enable high volume, automated or robotic electronic >> processes designed to collect or compile this data for any purpose, >> including mining this data for your own personal or commercial >> purposes. >> >> Please note: the registrant of the domain name is specified >> in the "registrant" field. In most cases, GoDaddy.com, Inc. >> is not the registrant of domain names listed in this database. >> >> >> Registrant: >> Domains by Proxy, Inc. >> DomainsByProxy.com >> 15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353 >> Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 >> United States >> >> Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com) >> Domain Name: FLIGHTPROSIM.COM >> Created on: 04-Jun-08 >> Expires on: 05-Jun-09 >> Last Updated on: 04-Jun-08 >> >> Administrative Contact: >> Private, Registration FLIGHTPROSIM.COM at domainsbyproxy.com >> Domains by Proxy, Inc. >> DomainsByProxy.com >> 15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353 >> Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 >> United States >> (480) 624-2599 Fax -- (480) 624-2598 >> >> Technical Contact: >> Private, Registration FLIGHTPROSIM.COM at domainsbyproxy.com >> Domains by Proxy, Inc. >> DomainsByProxy.com >> 15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353 >> Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 >> United States >> (480) 624-2599 Fax -- (480) 624-2598 >> >> Domain servers in listed order: >> NS45.DOMAINCONTROL.COM >> NS46.DOMAINCONTROL.COM >> >> arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ jwhois flight-aviator.com >> [Querying whois.verisign-grs.com] >> [Redirected to whois.godaddy.com] >> [Querying whois.godaddy.com] >> [whois.godaddy.com] >> The data contained in GoDaddy.com, Inc.'s WhoIs database, >> while believed by the company to be reliable, is provided "as is" >> with no guarantee or warranties regarding its accuracy. This >> information is provided for the sole purpose of assisting you >> in obtaining information about domain name registration records. >> Any use of this data for any other purpose is expressly forbidden >> without the prior written permission of GoDaddy.com, Inc. By >> submitting an inquiry, you agree to these terms of usage and >> limitations of warranty. In particular, you agree not to use this >> data to allow, enable, or otherwise make possible, dissemination or >> collection of this data, in part or in its entirety, for any purpose, >> such as the transmission of unsolicited advertising and and >> solicitations of any kind, including spam. You further agree not to >> use this data to enable high volume, automated or robotic electronic >> processes designed to collect or compile this data for any purpose, >> including mining this data for your own personal or commercial >> purposes. >> >> Please note: the registrant of the domain name is specified >> in the "registrant" field. In most cases, GoDaddy.com, Inc. >> is not the registrant of domain names listed in this database. >> >> >> Registrant: >> KcKpers Ltd >> 5a Jasmine place >> Wigram >> Christchurch, Canterbury 8004 >> New Zealand >> >> Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com) >> Domain Name: FLIGHT-AVIATOR.COM >> Created on: 25-Aug-08 >> Expires on: 26-Aug-10 >> Last Updated on: 25-Aug-08 >> >> Administrative Contact: >> Casey, Andrew domainaccounts at gmail.com >> KcKpers Ltd >> 5a Jasmine place >> Wigram >> Christchurch, Canterbury 8004 >> New Zealand >> (021) 186-3057 Fax -- >> >> Technical Contact: >> Casey, Andrew domainaccounts at gmail.com >> KcKpers Ltd >> 5a Jasmine place >> Wigram >> Christchurch, Canterbury 8004 >> New Zealand >> (021) 186-3057 Fax -- >> >> Domain servers in listed order: >> NS25.DOMAINCONTROL.COM >> NS26.DOMAINCONTROL.COM >> >> arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ dig flight-aviator.com >> >> ; <<>> DiG 9.5.0-P2 <<>> flight-aviator.com >> ;; global options: printcmd >> ;; Got answer: >> ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 49430 >> ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 0 >> >> ;; QUESTION SECTION: >> ;flight-aviator.com. IN A >> >> ;; ANSWER SECTION: >> flight-aviator.com. 3027 IN A 72.167.131.94 >> >> ;; Query time: 11 msec >> ;; SERVER: 192.168.1.1#53(192.168.1.1) >> ;; WHEN: Fri Nov 21 03:59:46 2008 >> ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 52 >> >> arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ dig -x 72.167.131.94 >> >> ; <<>> DiG 9.5.0-P2 <<>> -x 72.167.131.94 >> ;; global options: printcmd >> ;; Got answer: >> ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 31358 >> ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 0 >> >> ;; QUESTION SECTION: >> ;94.131.167.72.in-addr.arpa. IN PTR >> >> ;; ANSWER SECTION: >> 94.131.167.72.in-addr.arpa. 3600 IN PTR >> p3slh170.shr.phx3.secureserver.net. >> >> ;; Query time: 147 msec >> ;; SERVER: 192.168.1.1#53(192.168.1.1) >> ;; WHEN: Fri Nov 21 04:00:00 2008 >> ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 92 >> >> arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ jwhois secureserver.net. >> [Querying whois.internic.net] >> [Redirected to whois.wildwestdomains.com] >> [Querying whois.wildwestdomains.com] >> [whois.wildwestdomains.com] >> No match for "secureserver.net." in the registrar database. >> >> arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ >> arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ dig secureserver.net >> >> ; <<>> DiG 9.5.0-P2 <<>> secureserver.net >> ;; global options: printcmd >> ;; Got answer: >> ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 60319 >> ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 0 >> >> ;; QUESTION SECTION: >> ;secureserver.net. IN A >> >> ;; ANSWER SECTION: >> secureserver.net. 3600 IN A 208.109.132.208 >> >> ;; Query time: 146 msec >> ;; SERVER: 192.168.1.1#53(192.168.1.1) >> ;; WHEN: Fri Nov 21 04:01:02 2008 >> ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 50 >> >> arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ jwhois secureserver.net >> [Querying whois.verisign-grs.com] >> [Redirected to whois.wildwestdomains.com] >> [Querying whois.wildwestdomains.com] >> [whois.wildwestdomains.com] >> The data contained in this Registrar's Whois database, >> while believed by the registrar to be reliable, is provided "as is" >> with no guarantee or warranties regarding its accuracy. This >> information is provided for the sole purpose of assisting you in >> obtaining information about domain name registration records. Any use >> of this data for any other purpose is expressly forbidden without >> the prior written permission of this registrar. By submitting an >> inquiry, you agree to these terms of usage and limitations of >> warranty. In particular, you agree not to use this data to allow, >> enable, or otherwise make possible, dissemination or collection of >> this data, in part or in its entirety, for any purpose, such as the >> transmission of unsolicited advertising and solicitations of any >> kind, including spam. You further agree not to use this data to >> enable high volume, automated or robotic electronic processes >> designed to collect or compile this data for any purpose, including >> mining this data for your own personal or commercial purposes. >> >> Please note: the owner of the domain name is specified in the >> "registrant" field. In most cases, the Registrar is not the owner of >> domain names listed in this database. >> >> >> Registrant: >> Wild West Domains, Inc. >> 14455 N Hayden Rd #219 >> Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 >> United States >> >> Registered through: WWDomains.com >> Domain Name: SECURESERVER.NET >> Created on: 30-Mar-98 >> Expires on: 28-Mar-17 >> Last Updated on: 29-Aug-08 >> >> Administrative Contact: >> Wild West Domains, Inc., Wild West Domains, Inc. dns at jomax.net >> Wild West Domains, Inc. >> 14455 N Hayden Rd #219 >> Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 >> United States >> 4806242500 Fax -- 4805058844 >> >> Technical Contact: >> Wild West Domains, Inc., Wild West Domains, Inc. dns at jomax.net >> Wild West Domains, Inc. >> 14455 N Hayden Rd #219 >> Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 >> United States >> 4806242500 Fax -- 4805058844 >> >> Domain servers in listed order: >> CNS1.SECURESERVER.NET >> CNS2.SECURESERVER.NET >> >> arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ >> >> > (A parasite isn't always violating the GPL - a lot of X and kernel >> > developers call Ubuntu a parasite since they don't contribute a >> > proportional amount upstream.) >> > >> > Regards... Matthew >> > >> > >> > On 11/20/08, Stuart Buchanan wrote: >> > > --- On Thu, 20/11/08, Curtis Olson wrote: >> > >> Someone pointed out this site to me. It probably falls into >> > >> the category of just barely ok, but I thought I'd post the link >> > >> here to get some more eyes on it. >> > >> >> > >> http://flight-aviator.com/ >> > >> >> > > >> > > One way to discourage this sort of thing would be to include >> > > "www.flightgear.org" prominently in the startup screens, in the >> > > same way that we include "initializing sub-systems", >> > > "initializing scenery". >> > > >> > > Possibly with an added message along the lines of "Welcome to >> > > FlightGear, the free open source flight simulator." >> > > >> > > That would force the rip-off merchants to at least compile the >> > > code, rather than simply replacing some .pngs! >> > > >> > > -Stuart >> >> >> -- >> ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) >> ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... >> Scenarios always come in sets of three: >> best case, worst case, and just in case. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's >> challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK >> & win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source >> event anywhere in the world >> http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ >> _______________________________________________ Flightgear-devel >> mailing list Flightgear-devel at lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel >> > > > -- > ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) > ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... > Scenarios always come in sets of three: > best case, worst case, and just in case. > > -- -- Thomas From arnt at c2i.net Fri Nov 21 23:35:15 2008 From: arnt at c2i.net (Arnt Karlsen) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 23:35:15 +0100 Subject: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses In-Reply-To: <30dfe2a80811210644j21646c13j2f30459839a0730b@mail.gmail.com> References: <20081121065126.158110bd@a45.fmb.no> <30dfe2a80811210644j21646c13j2f30459839a0730b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081121233515.74417184@a45.fmb.no> On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:44:34 -0500, Thomas wrote in message <30dfe2a80811210644j21646c13j2f30459839a0730b at mail.gmail.com>: > So, file a complaint against them at paypal. ..how? Url etc hints? (I'm a newbie here. ;o)) > That'll get their attention. ..I think I got that all right. ;o) > Thomas > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 12:51 AM, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 04:41:26 +0100 > > From: Arnt Karlsen > > To: flightgear-devel at lists.sourceforge.net > > Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear > > under dubious pretenses > > > > > >> On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:16:34 -0500, Matthew wrote in message > >> : > >> > >> > One thing to be *very* careful of is assuming that flightgear has > >> > some absolute right to control what happens downstream. If this > >> > company is honoring it's responsibilities under the GPL, there is > >> > nothing that the FG community can do to prevent it happening. > >> > > >> > The GPL enshrines those rights to the recipient, and by extension > >> > you give up the right of control as an author when you allow code > >> > to be distributed under the GPL. > >> > >> ..except we do _not_ know _whether_ it is being sold under the GPL > >> here. > >> > >> ..the website rather strongly suggest this _is_ software piracy. > >> > >> ..therefore the copyright owners has the right to make this fine > >> seller, _prove_ his compliance to the GPL. (Or, simply call in the > >> cops. ;o)) > >> > >> ..absent evidence of such compliance, this becomes a copyright > >> infringement and criminal case under most jurisdictions, and > >> there's _ample_ case law suggesting viable solutions. ;o) > >> > >> ..in all fairness, I did find _one_ single mention of the GPL, > >> in: http://flight-aviator.com/images/fps/thumb/picture-0010.jpg > >> try search it for "ImGply". ;o) > >> > >> > >> ..pay-pal would know of payments made to these people. ;o) > >> > >> ..has anyone mirrored http://www.flight-aviator.com/shop/ etc? > >> I suspect they _are_ aware of our prodding, I could not buy > >> _anything_, _anywhere_ on their site, from them. ;o) > >> > >> > The main thing that the GPL prevents is 'flightsimpro' creating a > >> > flightsim that has unique features and linking it into the the > >> > main binary and preventing the release of that. But if the > >> > developer is keeping their stuff separate (say an advanced-clean > >> > room implementation of terrasync using different scenery, or a > >> > bridge to a different flight sim network), again they have done > >> > nothing wrong by the GPL (distribution of aggregations is a > >> > confusing area). > >> > > >> > Contact with this company would clarify most of this quickly. > >> > >> ..like I said above, I suspect they _are_ aware of our prodding. > >> So I too welcome their _thorough_ clarifications. ;o) > >> > >> > >> ..meanwhile, helpful whois etc output? ;o) > >> arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ jwhois flightprosim.com > >> [Querying whois.verisign-grs.com] > >> [Redirected to whois.godaddy.com] > >> [Querying whois.godaddy.com] > >> [whois.godaddy.com] > >> The data contained in GoDaddy.com, Inc.'s WhoIs database, > >> while believed by the company to be reliable, is provided "as is" > >> with no guarantee or warranties regarding its accuracy. This > >> information is provided for the sole purpose of assisting you > >> in obtaining information about domain name registration records. > >> Any use of this data for any other purpose is expressly forbidden > >> without the prior written permission of GoDaddy.com, Inc. By > >> submitting an inquiry, you agree to these terms of usage and > >> limitations of warranty. In particular, you agree not to use this > >> data to allow, enable, or otherwise make possible, dissemination or > >> collection of this data, in part or in its entirety, for any > >> purpose, such as the transmission of unsolicited advertising and > >> and solicitations of any kind, including spam. You further agree > >> not to use this data to enable high volume, automated or robotic > >> electronic processes designed to collect or compile this data for > >> any purpose, including mining this data for your own personal or > >> commercial purposes. > >> > >> Please note: the registrant of the domain name is specified > >> in the "registrant" field. In most cases, GoDaddy.com, Inc. > >> is not the registrant of domain names listed in this database. > >> > >> > >> Registrant: > >> Domains by Proxy, Inc. > >> DomainsByProxy.com > >> 15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353 > >> Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 > >> United States > >> > >> Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com) > >> Domain Name: FLIGHTPROSIM.COM > >> Created on: 04-Jun-08 > >> Expires on: 05-Jun-09 > >> Last Updated on: 04-Jun-08 > >> > >> Administrative Contact: > >> Private, Registration FLIGHTPROSIM.COM at domainsbyproxy.com > >> Domains by Proxy, Inc. > >> DomainsByProxy.com > >> 15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353 > >> Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 > >> United States > >> (480) 624-2599 Fax -- (480) 624-2598 > >> > >> Technical Contact: > >> Private, Registration FLIGHTPROSIM.COM at domainsbyproxy.com > >> Domains by Proxy, Inc. > >> DomainsByProxy.com > >> 15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353 > >> Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 > >> United States > >> (480) 624-2599 Fax -- (480) 624-2598 > >> > >> Domain servers in listed order: > >> NS45.DOMAINCONTROL.COM > >> NS46.DOMAINCONTROL.COM > >> > >> arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ jwhois flight-aviator.com > >> [Querying whois.verisign-grs.com] > >> [Redirected to whois.godaddy.com] > >> [Querying whois.godaddy.com] > >> [whois.godaddy.com] > >> The data contained in GoDaddy.com, Inc.'s WhoIs database, > >> while believed by the company to be reliable, is provided "as is" > >> with no guarantee or warranties regarding its accuracy. This > >> information is provided for the sole purpose of assisting you > >> in obtaining information about domain name registration records. > >> Any use of this data for any other purpose is expressly forbidden > >> without the prior written permission of GoDaddy.com, Inc. By > >> submitting an inquiry, you agree to these terms of usage and > >> limitations of warranty. In particular, you agree not to use this > >> data to allow, enable, or otherwise make possible, dissemination or > >> collection of this data, in part or in its entirety, for any > >> purpose, such as the transmission of unsolicited advertising and > >> and solicitations of any kind, including spam. You further agree > >> not to use this data to enable high volume, automated or robotic > >> electronic processes designed to collect or compile this data for > >> any purpose, including mining this data for your own personal or > >> commercial purposes. > >> > >> Please note: the registrant of the domain name is specified > >> in the "registrant" field. In most cases, GoDaddy.com, Inc. > >> is not the registrant of domain names listed in this database. > >> > >> > >> Registrant: > >> KcKpers Ltd > >> 5a Jasmine place > >> Wigram > >> Christchurch, Canterbury 8004 > >> New Zealand > >> > >> Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com) > >> Domain Name: FLIGHT-AVIATOR.COM > >> Created on: 25-Aug-08 > >> Expires on: 26-Aug-10 > >> Last Updated on: 25-Aug-08 > >> > >> Administrative Contact: > >> Casey, Andrew domainaccounts at gmail.com > >> KcKpers Ltd > >> 5a Jasmine place > >> Wigram > >> Christchurch, Canterbury 8004 > >> New Zealand > >> (021) 186-3057 Fax -- > >> > >> Technical Contact: > >> Casey, Andrew domainaccounts at gmail.com > >> KcKpers Ltd > >> 5a Jasmine place > >> Wigram > >> Christchurch, Canterbury 8004 > >> New Zealand > >> (021) 186-3057 Fax -- > >> > >> Domain servers in listed order: > >> NS25.DOMAINCONTROL.COM > >> NS26.DOMAINCONTROL.COM > >> > >> arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ dig flight-aviator.com > >> > >> ; <<>> DiG 9.5.0-P2 <<>> flight-aviator.com > >> ;; global options: printcmd > >> ;; Got answer: > >> ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 49430 > >> ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: > >> 0 > >> > >> ;; QUESTION SECTION: > >> ;flight-aviator.com. IN A > >> > >> ;; ANSWER SECTION: > >> flight-aviator.com. 3027 IN A 72.167.131.94 > >> > >> ;; Query time: 11 msec > >> ;; SERVER: 192.168.1.1#53(192.168.1.1) > >> ;; WHEN: Fri Nov 21 03:59:46 2008 > >> ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 52 > >> > >> arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ dig -x 72.167.131.94 > >> > >> ; <<>> DiG 9.5.0-P2 <<>> -x 72.167.131.94 > >> ;; global options: printcmd > >> ;; Got answer: > >> ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 31358 > >> ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: > >> 0 > >> > >> ;; QUESTION SECTION: > >> ;94.131.167.72.in-addr.arpa. IN PTR > >> > >> ;; ANSWER SECTION: > >> 94.131.167.72.in-addr.arpa. 3600 IN PTR > >> p3slh170.shr.phx3.secureserver.net. > >> > >> ;; Query time: 147 msec > >> ;; SERVER: 192.168.1.1#53(192.168.1.1) > >> ;; WHEN: Fri Nov 21 04:00:00 2008 > >> ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 92 > >> > >> arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ jwhois secureserver.net. > >> [Querying whois.internic.net] > >> [Redirected to whois.wildwestdomains.com] > >> [Querying whois.wildwestdomains.com] > >> [whois.wildwestdomains.com] > >> No match for "secureserver.net." in the registrar database. > >> > >> arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ > >> arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ dig secureserver.net > >> > >> ; <<>> DiG 9.5.0-P2 <<>> secureserver.net > >> ;; global options: printcmd > >> ;; Got answer: > >> ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 60319 > >> ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: > >> 0 > >> > >> ;; QUESTION SECTION: > >> ;secureserver.net. IN A > >> > >> ;; ANSWER SECTION: > >> secureserver.net. 3600 IN A 208.109.132.208 > >> > >> ;; Query time: 146 msec > >> ;; SERVER: 192.168.1.1#53(192.168.1.1) > >> ;; WHEN: Fri Nov 21 04:01:02 2008 > >> ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 50 > >> > >> arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ jwhois secureserver.net > >> [Querying whois.verisign-grs.com] > >> [Redirected to whois.wildwestdomains.com] > >> [Querying whois.wildwestdomains.com] > >> [whois.wildwestdomains.com] > >> The data contained in this Registrar's Whois database, > >> while believed by the registrar to be reliable, is provided "as is" > >> with no guarantee or warranties regarding its accuracy. This > >> information is provided for the sole purpose of assisting you in > >> obtaining information about domain name registration records. Any > >> use of this data for any other purpose is expressly forbidden > >> without the prior written permission of this registrar. By > >> submitting an inquiry, you agree to these terms of usage and > >> limitations of warranty. In particular, you agree not to use this > >> data to allow, enable, or otherwise make possible, dissemination > >> or collection of this data, in part or in its entirety, for any > >> purpose, such as the transmission of unsolicited advertising and > >> solicitations of any kind, including spam. You further agree not > >> to use this data to enable high volume, automated or robotic > >> electronic processes designed to collect or compile this data for > >> any purpose, including mining this data for your own personal or > >> commercial purposes. > >> > >> Please note: the owner of the domain name is specified in the > >> "registrant" field. In most cases, the Registrar is not the owner > >> of domain names listed in this database. > >> > >> > >> Registrant: > >> Wild West Domains, Inc. > >> 14455 N Hayden Rd #219 > >> Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 > >> United States > >> > >> Registered through: WWDomains.com > >> Domain Name: SECURESERVER.NET > >> Created on: 30-Mar-98 > >> Expires on: 28-Mar-17 > >> Last Updated on: 29-Aug-08 > >> > >> Administrative Contact: > >> Wild West Domains, Inc., Wild West Domains, Inc. > >> dns at jomax.net Wild West Domains, Inc. > >> 14455 N Hayden Rd #219 > >> Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 > >> United States > >> 4806242500 Fax -- 4805058844 > >> > >> Technical Contact: > >> Wild West Domains, Inc., Wild West Domains, Inc. > >> dns at jomax.net Wild West Domains, Inc. > >> 14455 N Hayden Rd #219 > >> Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 > >> United States > >> 4806242500 Fax -- 4805058844 > >> > >> Domain servers in listed order: > >> CNS1.SECURESERVER.NET > >> CNS2.SECURESERVER.NET > >> > >> arnt at a45:~/0a16 $ > >> > >> > (A parasite isn't always violating the GPL - a lot of X and > >> > kernel developers call Ubuntu a parasite since they don't > >> > contribute a proportional amount upstream.) > >> > > >> > Regards... Matthew > >> > > >> > > >> > On 11/20/08, Stuart Buchanan > >> > wrote: > >> > > --- On Thu, 20/11/08, Curtis Olson wrote: > >> > >> Someone pointed out this site to me. It probably falls into > >> > >> the category of just barely ok, but I thought I'd post the > >> > >> link here to get some more eyes on it. > >> > >> > >> > >> http://flight-aviator.com/ > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > > One way to discourage this sort of thing would be to include > >> > > "www.flightgear.org" prominently in the startup screens, in the > >> > > same way that we include "initializing sub-systems", > >> > > "initializing scenery". > >> > > > >> > > Possibly with an added message along the lines of "Welcome to > >> > > FlightGear, the free open source flight simulator." > >> > > > >> > > That would force the rip-off merchants to at least compile the > >> > > code, rather than simply replacing some .pngs! > >> > > > >> > > -Stuart -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. From twaffle at gmail.com Sat Nov 22 03:16:29 2008 From: twaffle at gmail.com (Thomas Charron) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 21:16:29 -0500 Subject: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses In-Reply-To: <20081121233515.74417184@a45.fmb.no> References: <20081121065126.158110bd@a45.fmb.no> <30dfe2a80811210644j21646c13j2f30459839a0730b@mail.gmail.com> <20081121233515.74417184@a45.fmb.no> Message-ID: <30dfe2a80811211816x41499a43g9d88d123d3223de2@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:44:34 -0500, Thomas wrote in message >> So, file a complaint against them at paypal. > ..how? Url etc hints? (I'm a newbie here. ;o)) >> That'll get their attention. > ..I think I got that all right. ;o) https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_external-webform&f=pps_prohib -- -- Thomas From arnt at c2i.net Sat Nov 22 03:25:43 2008 From: arnt at c2i.net (Arnt Karlsen) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 03:25:43 +0100 Subject: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses In-Reply-To: References: <9E3FFD1A-2A44-494E-9517-0533A82CF464@gmail.com> <20081121060206.546712bb@a45.fmb.no> <20081121074951.0b646d2c@a45.fmb.no> <20081121094618.346fb07a@a45.fmb.no> <49267C47.6080507@gogo.co.nz> Message-ID: <20081122032543.4cda8e67@a45.fmb.no> On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:16:25 -0500, Matthew wrote in message : > Okay. > > So, let's look at what actions should be taken. Given that I am not a > copyright owner, I have nothing at stake beyond community membership. ..me neither. ;o) ..but the copyright owners here and at 7Zip, Audacity, Wesnoth etc down http://www.idbproductions.com/Products/ , might want to know, so I Bcc them, and cc to legal at lists.gpl-violations.org. Maybe talk PJ into doing an article on http://groklaw.net/ ? > Regarding the images. We now sufficient information for individuals to > assert their copyright on the individual using them. ..I do not understand what you are trying to say here. Try again, you must have left something important out of your statement above. ..if you meant to say: "Regarding the images. We now have sufficient information for individuals to assert their copyright on the individual using them.", then good, I would agree. > Regarding flightgear, I am still trying to connect the dots on how we > can be sure there is a GPL violation. ..aye, first I'd like to carry on find and verify such verifiable facts. > Arnt, > > Can you describe which parts of the GPL you believe he is violating? ..not yet, first I look for facts. Facts we need to know, includes under which license each picture and each documentation document has been published. I guess the guys behind 7Zip, Audacity, Wesnoth etc down http://www.idbproductions.com/Products/ , would want the same. > Since this list is a public record, I would like to stay away from > potentially libelous claims, and stick to verifiable facts. Also, > what would your expectation be for any action. ..first find the facts, then confront these people with the facts and the license that walks away on violations and leaves them at the mercy of the teeth of the law. ;o) > There is no morality or advertising clause in the GPL, and almost all > of the rights conferred by the GPL are really oriented towards > distribution - ..correct. > of which no one has been a recipient. ..this _may_ be a possible verifiable fact, but you state it _as_ a fact, do you in fact _know_ it to be a fact? ..these websites has lots of statements from what I understand is alleged satisfied recipients, suggesting both GPL violations and fraudulent marketing. > Realistically, if he ships the source on CD, I don't think there is > any wrongdoing from flightgear's perspective. ..realistically, whenever I see such massive "rebranding" activity on graphic etc binaries, I expect to find some. ;o) > Regards... Matthew > > > Regards... Matthew > > > > > On 11/21/08, James Sleeman wrote: > > Arnt Karlsen wrote: > >> ..ok, this far I have found a fake physical address, suggesting my > >> suspicion is confirmable. So I cc. > >> > >> ..unless New Zealand allow a fake address, a fake company, a fake > >> name etc, these are illegally registred web sites. > >> > > Are we taking about whois data Arnt? The whois data on the domains > > seems to be sensible to me, infact, it's about 3 KM as the Cub flys > > from my own house in Hoon Hay. He is very nearby to a very ..excellent, then you would be in an excellent position to verify there indeed _is_ a house at 5A Jasmine Place? Pictures? I found none and said so. > > historic airfield which is sadly going to close in a couple of > > months forever to be made into housing by the landowners :-( ..you could try FUD them away from your airfield? Finance crisis and all? "Wait and see!"? ;o) > > I have noticed this rebranding of FG for sale on the dominant > > auction site here in NZ for quite a long time, but never really > > felt concerned by it - ..you should have, the bad guys try to undermine the GPL and copyright e.g. thru software piracy and by establishing "an established practice" to form case law. This is a long term strategy and they have deep pocket and when exposed, they try to intimidate their way out of it with e.g. subtle litigation FUD. ;o) Check http://groklaw.net/ ;o) > > http://www.trademe.co.nz/Gaming/PC-games/Simulation/auction-188794636.htm > > > > Now I look, the trademe username is "casey-a" from Christchurch, the > > whois data for the domain indicates this is Mr Andrew Casey of that > > address. Phone number etc is in the whois. I won't post it here > > for respect. ..respect for who? ..assuming you respect the copyright holders of FlightGear, 7Zip, Audacity, Wesnoth etc down www.idbproductions.com/Products/ way, then maybe you could mail it so we can help check it all out? > > The whois on flight-aviator.com and idbproductions.com match up. > > The whois on idb.net.nz doesn't quite, but could just be an work > > address, it's not very far away. ..sounds reasonable, it's 7.1 km ? about 18 mins according to: http://maps.google.com/maps/empw?url=http:%2F%2Fmaps.google.com%2Fmaps%3Fdaddr%3D38%2BRaxworthy%2BSt,%2BIlam,%2BCanterbury%2B8041,%2BNew%2BZealand%26geocode%3D%26dirflg%3D%26saddr%3D5A%2BJasmine%2BPlace%2BWigram%26f%3Dd%26sll%3D-43.510903,172.56585%26sspn%3D0.017445,0.031564%26ie%3DUTF8%26ll%3D-43.53206,172.55403%26spn%3D0.04432,0.0381%26output%3Dembed%26s%3DAARTsJqJH0RHfHRvB2xwVrEv6DxeKLuYfw&hl=en > > The company name in the whois "KcKpers Ltd" is a legitimate > > company, and the Director's address agrees with the whois on > > the .com domains, you can search the company at > > www.companies.govt.nz . Mr Casey is the only shareholder (nothing > > sinister in that, common practice). The company was incorporated > > in 2002, and Mr Casey was he who did that incorporation and had the > > same Wigram address at the time. > > > > I don't see any fakeness Arnt? Or have I missed half of a > > conversation somewhere? ..I certainly missed _your_ half of this conversation, _did_ you try post this to FG-dev or legal at lists.gpl-violations.org, or did you try mail me? > > --- > > James Sleeman -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. From twaffle at gmail.com Sat Nov 22 15:12:27 2008 From: twaffle at gmail.com (Thomas Charron) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 09:12:27 -0500 Subject: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses In-Reply-To: <20081122032543.4cda8e67@a45.fmb.no> References: <20081121060206.546712bb@a45.fmb.no> <20081121074951.0b646d2c@a45.fmb.no> <20081121094618.346fb07a@a45.fmb.no> <49267C47.6080507@gogo.co.nz> <20081122032543.4cda8e67@a45.fmb.no> Message-ID: <30dfe2a80811220612r73452fdbmf1045db18237476e@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 9:25 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote: >> So, let's look at what actions should be taken. Given that I am not a >> copyright owner, I have nothing at stake beyond community membership. > ..me neither. ;o) Actually, he's got a lot more at stake. Namely, if he is not complying with the license, then he has no license. So any money made is at state, plus potential punative damages. >> Regarding flightgear, I am still trying to connect the dots on how we >> can be sure there is a GPL violation. > ..aye, first I'd like to carry on find and verify such verifiable > facts. This is VERY simple. Is there a written offer to get the source code required to rebuild the application as they ship it? Yes, or no. *all* the source code. If no, then they have sold products. While I am not a lawyer, obviously, this is pretty straitforward in a case of blatant repackaging and re-branding. -- -- Thomas From arnt at c2i.net Sat Nov 22 20:48:59 2008 From: arnt at c2i.net (Arnt Karlsen) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 20:48:59 +0100 Subject: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses In-Reply-To: <200811221319.40619@rk-nord.at> References: <200811221319.40619@rk-nord.at> Message-ID: <20081122204859.5049fd35@a45.fmb.no> On Sat, 22 Nov 2008 13:19:40 +0100, Melchior wrote in message <200811221319.40619 at rk-nord.at>: > * KcKpers Ltd -- Saturday 22 November 2008: > > I will remove any images if you notify me that you wish them > > to be removed. > > No! Remove all of them, unless someone gives you explicit > permission to use them! You don't have any permission so > far! You are violating our rights and international ..actually, it's local to each and every country, but it works pretty much the same, jail and tremble damages and disgorgement and all. ;o) > copyright law! Copyright doesn't work on an "opt-out" > basis! ..it's really "_Comply_ to the GPL, _OR_, Face the Teeth and Wrath of Copyright Law Enforcement." > > If flight gear is under a GPL license, does this not mean > > work created with the use of flight gear is also under this > > license if it an output of this software > > No! My editor is GPL, but what I write with it is not! ..except if you write FG etc code and commit it into cvs, svn or git etc so it gets into FG, I rather strongly suspect you would own it and commit it under the GPL, and I haven't seen anyone here do that under GPLv3, so the GPLv2 would require Sean, James, Andrew et al to come kneeling to Melchior and Curt et al like Heinrich IV came kneeling to Pope Gregory VII in Canossa, and ask for explicit permission to start distributing FlightGear etc, _after_ they have apologized and paid e.g. tremble damages to fix the damage they have caused FG. ..should e.g. Melchior decide "No." like the Pope did (in the first 3 days) at Fortress Canossa, then Sean, James, Andrew et al must remove _all_ of Melchior's code from their re-branded commercial version of FG and supply that version to _all_ of their customers or gift etc recipients. Etc. ..function and use is irrelevant under the GPL, the GPL and copyright law merely concerns Copyright. ;o) ..and Melchior as copyright owner may want to try out https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_external-webform&f=pps_prohib that Thomas so promptly adviced me of. ;o) ..on Sat, 22 Nov 2008 09:12:27 -0500, Thomas advices in message <30dfe2a80811220612r73452fdbmf1045db18237476e at mail.gmail.com>: > On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 9:25 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > >> So, let's look at what actions should be taken. Given that I am > >> not a copyright owner, I have nothing at stake beyond community > >> membership. > > ..me neither. ;o) > > Actually, he's got a lot more at stake. Namely, if he is not > complying with the license, then he has no license. So any money made > is at state, plus potential punative damages. > > >> Regarding flightgear, I am still trying to connect the dots on how > >> we can be sure there is a GPL violation. > > ..aye, first I'd like to carry on find and verify such verifiable > > facts. > > This is VERY simple. Is there a written offer to get the source > code required to rebuild the application as they ship it? Yes, or no. > *all* the source code. If no, then they have sold products. While I > am not a lawyer, obviously, this is pretty straitforward in a case of > blatant repackaging and re-branding. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. From coughlan at fsfeurope.org Sat Nov 22 22:56:45 2008 From: coughlan at fsfeurope.org (Shane Martin Coughlan) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 21:56:45 +0000 Subject: Reporting violations Message-ID: <4928801D.7080408@fsfeurope.org> Hi all It would be really useful violation reports could contain: (1) The name of the project code that may have been violated (2) A statement regarding what licence this code is under (3) A link to the project site (4) The name and website of the party who may be violating the code (5) The reason why a violation is believed to exist Forwarding big threads and so on makes it difficult to assess the situation. Bare facts first, then we can ask questions where required. Thanks Shane -- Shane Coughlan FTF Coordinator Free Software Foundation Europe Office: +41435000366 ext 408 / Mobile: +353858303486 coughlan at fsfeurope.org Support Free Software > http://fsfe.org From coughlan at fsfeurope.org Sat Nov 22 23:03:24 2008 From: coughlan at fsfeurope.org (Shane Martin Coughlan) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 22:03:24 +0000 Subject: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses In-Reply-To: <49287AD7.5020609@fsfeurope.org> References: <200811221319.40619@rk-nord.at> <20081122204859.5049fd35@a45.fmb.no> <49287AD7.5020609@fsfeurope.org> Message-ID: <492881AC.2090905@fsfeurope.org> Shane Martin Coughlan wrote: > Can you please clarify how precisely the Flightgear GPL distribution > been potentially violated a third party? My apologies. A half-edited sentence. It should read: Can you please clarify how precisely the Flightgear GPL distribution has been potentially violated by a third party? We have: (1) The name of the project code that may have been violated Flightgear (2) A statement regarding what licence this code is under GPL (I assume) (3) A link to the project site www.flightgear.org What we need in as few words as possible is: (4) The name and website of the party who may be violating the code (5) The precise reason why a violation is believed to exist Shane -- Shane Coughlan FTF Coordinator Free Software Foundation Europe Office: +41435000366 ext 408 / Mobile: +353858303486 coughlan at fsfeurope.org Support Free Software > http://fsfe.org From mrintegrity at gmail.com Sat Nov 22 23:07:49 2008 From: mrintegrity at gmail.com (mr) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 23:07:49 +0100 Subject: Reporting violations In-Reply-To: <4928801D.7080408@fsfeurope.org> References: <4928801D.7080408@fsfeurope.org> Message-ID: <5dfaf390811221407i26afdau1d62092b81d92f6c@mail.gmail.com> How about we create an easy to follow template? That way it should be obvious what is required and what might be missing for someone before they start reporting. Cheers, Alan 2008/11/22 Shane Martin Coughlan > Hi all > > It would be really useful violation reports could contain: > > (1) The name of the project code that may have been violated > (2) A statement regarding what licence this code is under > (3) A link to the project site > (4) The name and website of the party who may be violating the code > (5) The reason why a violation is believed to exist > > Forwarding big threads and so on makes it difficult to assess the > situation. Bare facts first, then we can ask questions where required. > > Thanks > > Shane > > -- > Shane Coughlan > FTF Coordinator > Free Software Foundation Europe > Office: +41435000366 ext 408 / Mobile: +353858303486 > coughlan at fsfeurope.org > Support Free Software > http://fsfe.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gpl-violations.org/pipermail/legal/attachments/20081122/17558f96/attachment.htm From coughlan at fsfeurope.org Sat Nov 22 22:34:15 2008 From: coughlan at fsfeurope.org (Shane Martin Coughlan) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 21:34:15 +0000 Subject: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses In-Reply-To: <20081122204859.5049fd35@a45.fmb.no> References: <200811221319.40619@rk-nord.at> <20081122204859.5049fd35@a45.fmb.no> Message-ID: <49287AD7.5020609@fsfeurope.org> Hello Arnt This entire thread makes very little sense on the gpl-violations.org mailing list. There are a lot of forwarded messages and sections of other discussions. Can you please clarify how precisely the Flightgear GPL distribution been potentially violated a third party? Thank you. Shane -- Shane Coughlan FTF Coordinator Free Software Foundation Europe Office: +41435000366 ext 408 / Mobile: +353858303486 coughlan at fsfeurope.org Support Free Software > http://fsfe.org From coughlan at fsfeurope.org Sun Nov 23 12:02:10 2008 From: coughlan at fsfeurope.org (Shane Martin Coughlan) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 11:02:10 +0000 Subject: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses In-Reply-To: <20081123041841.061d0507@a45.fmb.no> References: <200811221319.40619@rk-nord.at> <20081122204859.5049fd35@a45.fmb.no> <49287AD7.5020609@fsfeurope.org> <492881AC.2090905@fsfeurope.org> <20081123041841.061d0507@a45.fmb.no> Message-ID: <49293832.4040709@fsfeurope.org> Hi Arnt Arnt Karlsen wrote: > ..I'll cut 'n paste again: > ..good old fashion software piracy AFAICT from my copy of > http://idbproductions.com/Products/ , and Andrew Casey's "if > it's under the GPL", this far I've found FG, Audacity, Wesnoth, > 7Zip and several other's I haven't identified yet due to Casey > et al's "rebranding", at least FG developers has had their art > stolen and "rebranded" and I see several other peoples screen > shots treated similarly. Casey's www.flight-aviator.com and > flightprosim.com and idbproductions.com/catalog/ used to sell > these "rebranded products" without any mention of the GPL. If Flightgear is under the GPL then re-branding is not necessarily a violation. Re-branding is not prohibited by the GPL licence, though copyright attribution and so on cannot be removed from the code. It does not appear that attribution has been necessarily been removed. On http://www.flightprosim.com/ it says "Based on the award winning Flight Gear project." If the software 'flight-aviator' or 'flight sim pro' is distributed with a copy of the GPL and source code or a written offer to provide source code, then it may be compliant with the terms of the licence. You need to establish if the project is distributing Flightgear derived code (or other content distributed under the same licence) outside of the terms of the GPL. Regards Shane -- Shane Coughlan FTF Coordinator Free Software Foundation Europe Office: +41435000366 ext 408 / Mobile: +353858303486 coughlan at fsfeurope.org Support Free Software > http://fsfe.org From twaffle at gmail.com Sun Nov 23 17:13:43 2008 From: twaffle at gmail.com (Thomas Charron) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 11:13:43 -0500 Subject: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses In-Reply-To: <492881AC.2090905@fsfeurope.org> References: <200811221319.40619@rk-nord.at> <20081122204859.5049fd35@a45.fmb.no> <49287AD7.5020609@fsfeurope.org> <492881AC.2090905@fsfeurope.org> Message-ID: <30dfe2a80811230813j4bc53e8ckb25d8bca69c79220@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 5:03 PM, Shane Martin Coughlan wrote: > (4) The name and website of the party who may be violating the code http://flight-aviator.com is the site they are selling the product under. They are repackaging and resellling, for the most part, with no mention of the GPL and no offer to source. When they are asked regarding the availability, they do not feel that they are bound by the GPL as they have made modifications to the software itself (illustrating a blatant misunderstanding of the license itself) > (5) The precise reason why a violation is believed to exist See above. :-D -- -- Thomas From coughlan at fsfeurope.org Sun Nov 23 22:17:14 2008 From: coughlan at fsfeurope.org (Shane Martin Coughlan) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 21:17:14 +0000 Subject: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses In-Reply-To: <30dfe2a80811230813j4bc53e8ckb25d8bca69c79220@mail.gmail.com> References: <200811221319.40619@rk-nord.at> <20081122204859.5049fd35@a45.fmb.no> <49287AD7.5020609@fsfeurope.org> <492881AC.2090905@fsfeurope.org> <30dfe2a80811230813j4bc53e8ckb25d8bca69c79220@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4929C85A.6050100@fsfeurope.org> Thomas Charron wrote: > On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 5:03 PM, Shane Martin Coughlan > wrote: >> (4) The name and website of the party who may be violating the code > > http://flight-aviator.com is the site they are selling the product > under. They are repackaging and resellling, for the most part, with > no mention of the GPL and no offer to source. When they are asked > regarding the availability, they do not feel that they are bound by > the GPL as they have made modifications to the software itself > (illustrating a blatant misunderstanding of the license itself) Now, that is interesting. Making modifications does not remove an obligation to obey the licence. They must abide by the terms of the GPL with the original code or modified versions of it. I suppose the key question therefore is what gets delivered to people who order the software. It's still not necessarily a violation if the product actually shipped to purchasers comes with a copy of the GPL licence, copyright notices intact, and the source (or an offer to provide the source). Shane -- Shane Coughlan FTF Coordinator Free Software Foundation Europe Office: +41435000366 ext 408 / Mobile: +353858303486 coughlan at fsfeurope.org Support Free Software > http://fsfe.org From loic at dachary.org Mon Nov 24 09:26:25 2008 From: loic at dachary.org (Loic Dachary) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 09:26:25 +0100 Subject: Reporting violations In-Reply-To: <4928801D.7080408@fsfeurope.org> References: <4928801D.7080408@fsfeurope.org> Message-ID: <492A6531.5070302@dachary.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Shane Martin Coughlan wrote: > Hi all > > It would be really useful violation reports could contain: > > (1) The name of the project code that may have been violated (2) A > statement regarding what licence this code is under (3) A link to > the project site (4) The name and website of the party who may be > violating the code (5) The reason why a violation is believed to > exist > > Forwarding big threads and so on makes it difficult to assess the > situation. Bare facts first, then we can ask questions where > required. Hi, Regarding (5) I often suggest that the violation is reported as a HOWTO. The HOWTO explains what must be done to get the facts and concludes with the list of things that are missing or modified contrary to the licensing terms. I then obey the HOWTO and submit the result to a lawyer. In rare cases (such as a violation involving a device connected to the internet), it may be difficult to run the HOWTO, but most of the time it is trivial and the result can be used as-is. Cheers -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkkqZTEACgkQ8dLMyEl6F210SgCgt40jvAsHHmqHNwN4fnJvQ+wt OWwAn2iPW63GEwyZq04pdaX5j3C8XQ94 =Oowl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: loic.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 289 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.gpl-violations.org/pipermail/legal/attachments/20081124/01c34ca4/attachment.vcf From coughlan at fsfeurope.org Mon Nov 24 12:50:47 2008 From: coughlan at fsfeurope.org (Shane Martin Coughlan) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 11:50:47 +0000 Subject: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear under dubious pretenses In-Reply-To: <4929C85A.6050100@fsfeurope.org> References: <200811221319.40619@rk-nord.at> <20081122204859.5049fd35@a45.fmb.no> <49287AD7.5020609@fsfeurope.org> <492881AC.2090905@fsfeurope.org> <30dfe2a80811230813j4bc53e8ckb25d8bca69c79220@mail.gmail.com> <4929C85A.6050100@fsfeurope.org> Message-ID: <492A9517.1070501@fsfeurope.org> For those following the Flightgear thread on gpl-violations.org please note: (1) There is no confirmation of a GPL violation at this juncture, though a few details regarding a third party distributing modified versions of the software need to be clarified. (2) There appears to have been unauthorised use of Flightgear project screenshots from the Flightgear website to promote the third party project. These screenshots appear to have been modified without permission. The Flightgear maintainers are looking into the issue. Regards Shane -- Shane Coughlan FTF Coordinator Free Software Foundation Europe Office: +41435000366 ext 408 / Mobile: +353858303486 coughlan at fsfeurope.org Support Free Software > http://fsfe.org From pascal at bongosoft.de Thu Nov 27 17:21:16 2008 From: pascal at bongosoft.de (Pascal) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 17:21:16 +0100 Subject: [rt.gpl-violations.org #2406] GPL violation on BongoSurfer In-Reply-To: <4919BD8F.5090304@bongosoft.de> References: <4919BD8F.5090304@bongosoft.de> Message-ID: <492EC8FC.7070503@bongosoft.de> Hello, finally FIRST INTERNET INVEST LTD sent us links to the complete source-codes of ColorSurfer! The sources compile well and seem to fit to the released project. I would say this issue is resolved now without big conflicts :) I will publish the URLs of the sources on my site, and ask for new sources when new versions of colorsurfer appear... Linux-Version: DIFF: Windows-Version: DIFF: We still have to ask the ISPs who are shipping derived versions of Colorsurfer for the sources, but I'm quite optimistic. Thank you all for your help! regards, Pascal Pollet